JFKA Murdered Witnesses

Penn Jones tells Mark Lane he began his investigation when he noticed something wrong with the Warren Commission. "The only way you can believe the warren report is to not read it." Witnesses in hiding, scared or dead. 18 material witness died in the first three years: detailed near the end. The odds of that happening were calculated by the London Times at 100-QUADRILLION -to-1. #JFK Assassination

Pre-WCR: Oswald, Tippit witnesses Benavidez bro & Killiam, Warren Reynolds, Reynolds' shooter's girlfriend who gave alibi Benavidez & Reynolds then changed story to Oswald theory Post WCR: ... from youtube.com/@tvted12345

from TMWKK-6 With corpsman Dennis David describing slides and film Pitzer showed him of autopsy, in which there were visible the large right rear exit wound and the upward shot that left a fragment trail in the non-"enhanced" X-Rays. Pitzer ran the A/V Dept at Bethesda and could access all the cameras from what I understand.

Full video at JFKHandsonresearch YT Transcript: https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Custer_10-28-97.pdf

Transcript to read along if anyone has trouble with the audio- 0:03 welcome to JFK in the enduring secret I'm your host Jeff 0:09 [Music] 0:21 Cel hello everyone and welcome to JFK the enduring secret on YouTube today is 0:28 the debut of our very first minseries on the tube and it truly is a wander so 0:34 much so that we decided that the wander deserves its own name so we're calling 0:40 it Mysteries of the enduring secret not everything about the JFK assassination 0:46 is a big mystery but then again on the other end of the spectrum there are more 0:51 than a handful of big Mysteries inside this case a case that overall remains an 0:59 enduring Secret about 2 years ago I returned a phone call one day from a man whose name was 1:06 unfamiliar to me his name was Rick Russo little did I know that Rick had been a 1:12 catalyst in getting episode number six produced for the men who killed Kennedy 1:18 he had found my podcast and now I had found him to make a long story short 1:24 Rick and I quickly became friends and over time our focus on the JFK assassination led to the idea that we 1:31 should engage in a series of episodes together for JFK the endearing secret 1:38 Rick has a superb understanding of some of the most Arcane aspects of the case 1:43 you've heard it before on this show that the eye is blind to what the Mind cannot 1:49 see I've been studying this case for almost 35 years and it just about every 1:54 phone call with Rick I've learned something more about the assassination 1:59 it took a little coaxing from me to get him on the tube and Mysteries of the enduring secret comes to us from 12 2:07 stories identified by Rick himself and you'll hear the first one today on JFK 2:14 the enduring secret on YouTube most people don't realize that 2:20 the White House is a military post the White House guard is there to protect 2:25 the president and the president of course is the commanderin-chief of the Armed Forces upon the death of the 2:32 president the captain of the White House guard assumes temporary command of the White House and he or she does so until 2:40 such time as the captain is relieved of command by the newly sworn in 2:45 president with LBJ in Texas at the time of the assassination the situation 2:51 invoked the need for the guard to assume control over some functions at the White House until lbj's return to Washington 2:59 which occurred occurred later that evening and certainly under the circumstances there was a heightened amount of security being applied all the 3:07 way around the White House guard is part of the third United States infantry 3:12 better known as the old guard on November 22nd Michael Groves 3:18 was captain of the White House guard and today's episode deals with his mysterious story in his mysterious 3:26 death the historical origins of the White House guard are interesting following the Revolutionary 3:33 War the Continental Army was disbanded and only a small artillery Detachment 3:39 located at West Point was retained this group became the third infantry regiment which is more 3:46 affectionately known as I said as the old guard the third infantry regiment 3:51 since 1948 has made their home at Fort Meyer Virginia you can look across the 3:57 pomac from there and see the nation's capital the Old Guard is responsible for 4:03 many functions and one of them is maintaining the Perpetual guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier however it may be more widely 4:11 recognized for performing burials in Arlington Cemetery with all of the ceremonial accoutrements and for 4:17 providing the quesan platoon and Paul bearers for State funerals the Old Guard is the oldest 4:25 active Infantry Regiment in the United States Army so it's fitting that this unit should bear the responsibility for 4:32 the supervision Direction and performance of funerals perhaps there is no more 4:38 poignant symbol at a state funeral than a riderless horse a horse which is 4:43 considered a symbolic representation that the deceased was mounted in this life and will continue to be mounted in 4:51 the Hereafter perhaps the most famous riderless horse was Blackjack named 4:57 after General John J blackjack ja persing the general made most famous by World War 5:03 I although the death of President Kennedy brought the Old Guard and its military Traditions into the national 5:09 Spotlight the activities surrounding the funeral also brought tragedy to the 5:15 members of the third infantry regiment Captain Michael D grov the 5:21 officer responsible for the military Arrangements at the funeral of the president died of a heart attack just 10 5:28 days later on December 3rd 1963 at home while dining with his 5:35 family he was 27 years old and he was a captain responsible for the training and 5:41 the supervision of the body bearers those who did the death watch the rifle 5:46 firing party and the quesan escort for the services at the White House the 5:51 capital in Arlington Cemetery according to a speech after his 5:57 death made on the floor of the house of repes Representatives by Congressman James G Fulton of Pennsylvania Fulton 6:04 would say captain Groves worked day and night to handle the arrangements and he 6:11 over taxed himself that was the official story of Michael Groves but how could a healthy 6:19 27-year-old simply collapse onto his dinner plate and pass away in the 6:25 presence of his family with the explanation being that he simply over taxed 6:30 himself is that what really happened now in this episode we'll Dive 6:37 Right into this mystery of the enduring 6:44 secret I actually David it's a pleasure to meet you in person I know we had a CH 6:50 we had a very nice conversation last night when I was at the diner and uh or the night before whatever it was I I 6:56 appreciate uh you being so uh prompt actually and getting on with it so 7:01 quickly we're we're we're having a lot of fun with this I just you know before we get started um well it's nice to have 7:09 an alternate platform this has you know been a story that that needed to be told for decades you know you know whether 7:17 what the validity of it you know I don't know in in terms of uh uh you know I've 7:24 read the number of deaths that have been associated with the Kennedy assassination you know people have just 7:30 died of natural causes you know other people have been shot in the back of the head uh so the so the number of uh of 7:37 deaths associated with this is a pretty Monumental um certainly 7:44 is it it um this is a a story actually 7:49 just to give you a little bit of background on the miniseries that we're producing here for JFK the enduring 7:56 secret uh YouTube channel uh it Rick and I got together probably about two years 8:03 ago he Rick called I think I told you the story Rick called me left a message 8:10 identified how he had become uh involved in the JFK 8:15 assassination uh research community so to speak and uh his involvement with the 8:21 men who killed Kennedy and I called him back we had a long conversation actually 8:26 some spirited debate I think too on a Sunday afternoon uh and that began a an 8:33 increasingly uh more significant collaboration on a lot of different things and in the meantime I've been 8:39 able to produce 209 episodes on the show and you know we we really we want to do 8:46 this in a really Mindful and respectful way and and uh in a way that does uh 8:52 justice to all of the elements of this case and I might as I say on the podcast 8:57 I use a lot of colloquialism and I say things like you know you fact is Stranger Than Fiction and you just 9:04 really can't write this stuff and right so it led us to a moment where we decided we were going to do a dozen or 9:10 so stories and as sort of an offshoot of JFK the enduring secret called Mysteries 9:16 of the enduring secret things that may have some significance uh to the case 9:21 but have never been resolved or solved so this is one of them yeah yeah exactly 9:27 well and you know the more people that see this the the more feedback you get and presumably they have more of an 9:33 opportunity than I do in doing some of the research you know I was uh you know 9:38 we I went back to Dallas last year um and uh we attempted to get into the uh 9:46 the Dallas Museum you know on the fifth floor well as as it turned out because 9:51 of covid they were closed on the Monday so we knew we couldn't get there on a Monday so I showed up on a Tuesday well 9:58 they were closed on the Tuesday as well we didn't get the chance to didn't 10:04 get a chance to go in and see the uh the museum although I think they pretty much stick to the party line oh yeah yeah the 10:12 certainly the museum does for sure that's there's no doubt about that um well um how we just plan on do it's 10:19 really casual how we plan on doing this today is uh really actually to just kind 10:24 of hand it off to you and let you tell the story and obviously be good listeners and and interject from time to 10:32 time with a question and and Rick will probably direct he he knows the story better than I do for sure and uh it's 10:39 fascinating of course and uh and we'll just do it that way and uh see how see how it leads no no Rhyme or Reason you 10:46 the other day you were just fabulous on the phone and I think uh uh you know just having that kind of that kind of 10:52 narrative would be great okay well I can I can start simply 10:57 by you know um I I was 18 years old just 11:02 starting College uh you know when Kennedy was assassinated obviously uh 11:09 you know everybody began to just get glued to the TV set you know because it was almost on you know 247 you know you 11:18 um and uh it always struck me as being a little odd that people just immediately 11:24 jumped to the conclusion that it was a a lone shooter you know know that just 11:29 immediately came out they kind of knew who the shooter was it was Lee Harvey Oswald and um uh but then over the years 11:38 you know after the warrant report came out and uh began looking at some of the 11:43 facts that they were that was missing from the report um you know I began to 11:49 you know feel that the true story was being covered up um uh that said you 11:55 know so many years later I was uh I at that point I was living in in California 12:01 I was transferred to Michigan um uh I rented um uh in a a 12:08 place a house actually it was a like a duplex um and I 12:16 um on on uid on uid Avenue in Birmingham and uh at one point in time I was on the 12:24 second floor and I was looking I was looking out the the back window and and I saw a gentleman uh lying on the ground 12:32 next door it must have been I would maybe say June or July um so the weather 12:38 was very nice and anyway I I was a little alarmed that this that this man was just lying sort of face down in the 12:45 backyard on some nice plush grass um and I went next door and I knocked on the 12:52 door and the woman came out and um I said I don't know if you're aware of 12:57 this but there's a gentleman lying face down on on in your backyard and she said oh that's my husband she said I think he 13:04 had a little too much to drink last night and he just lay lied down in the in the backyard she said he was too 13:11 heavy for me to move so I just left him there so I said oh okay so he's okay she 13:17 said I'm sure he is um and that's how I met the nextd door neighbors you know um 13:24 story and uh um and what happened what happened after that is um you know we 13:31 ran into each other on occasion basically just being next door and at one point they invited myself and my 13:37 wife over uh for dinner and so we you know happily uh agreed to join them we 13:44 went there we were having a very nice dinner and and chatting and at some point I looked up on the mantle and 13:50 there was a a photograph of a of a of a young man in in uniform and I not 13:58 knowing any anything about them for the most part I I looked and I said who's the who's the uh uh who's the man on the 14:04 mantle that um uh in in uniform and they said they said that's that was our 14:09 son and um and I said he's uh they said he's dead now and I said I'm sorry to 14:16 hear that and how did that happen and they said well you know he was a uh the 14:23 captain of the Guard um in in the White House and uh they the story that tell me 14:29 is that he was hand selected by President Kennedy that the president actually hand selects the captain of the 14:37 Guard during his term of office and uh so um um Captain Michael 14:44 Groves was the one that was selected he was I think 27 years of age um he was uh 14:50 married uh I think he got married in Birmingham Michigan uh he was in the ROC 14:56 I think in an arbor um um he uh his I think his family had 15:05 some influence with Birmingham because Birmingham they call it Birmingham high now but it used to be called Groves High 15:14 so it was named after one of the Groves but I don't think it was I don't think it was Don Groves the the gentleman that 15:21 lived next door but I think his family you know might have been a mover and Shaker in Birmingham at one point in 15:27 time and I believe believe that you if you're going to be selected by the president from from uh for the Old Guard 15:35 and become the the the captain of the Old Guard I think you'd probably have to have a pretty 15:40 impeccable um uh resume you know and that probably might include you know the 15:47 fact that his U parents or his grandparents you know were sort of 15:53 movers and shakers in the town of Birmingham Michigan in order to get a to get the school name after them uh not 16:00 not soon after not soon after I left I think they changed the name from Groves 16:05 High to Birmingham high school so as I said it's now called Birmingham High 16:10 anyway they the story that they tell me is uh that their son being the captain 16:17 of the Guard they said that the White House is not um is not a government 16:23 building per se it's actually a military fort uh and um uh it is the residence of 16:32 the commanderin-chief of the Armed Forces and what what according to them 16:39 when Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas the captain of the Guard 16:46 assumes authority over the fort over the White House and he needs to be relieved by the 16:56 incoming commander and chief Chief well Johnson was being sworn in on a plane 17:03 you know after Kennedy was assassinated and so he was about five hours away uh 17:10 not necessarily by playing but by the time Kennedy was pronounced dead to the time that Lyndon the LBJ entered the 17:18 White House and relieved Captain Groves of command um Groves was listening to 17:26 everything that was coming into and out of the way White House so for about five hours he was privy to people calling in 17:33 basically saying we had nothing to do with this I mean it could have been it could have been the Russians could have 17:40 called in and say we have nothing to do with this it could have been the Cubans I have no idea who who called I'm sure 17:45 many many people many government officials called and so on so he in 17:51 essence was was privy to this um they believe that um that that caused them to 18:01 want to off him and they believed that he allegedly on the on the November 18:10 25th had a heart attack at 27 was in fine physical condition as most of the 18:16 members of the of the honor guard are and 18:22 um the family believes he was poisoned um they had uh they showed me 18:30 an Al a a picture album of the funeral um with the case on carrying their son's 18:38 coffin with the lone horse pulling the cas on with the boots backwards in the 18:45 stups uh you know there's some issue as what kind of blanket might have been used they the the different color of the 18:52 blanket might have been um indicative of the uh uh position that that person held 18:59 in government or in the military um but nonetheless it was a 19:05 state funeral um straight straight up Pennsylvania Avenue towards um Arlington 19:11 National Cemetery uh and that was um according to 19:18 the White House and according to um um our Arlington National Cemetery uh he 19:26 died on the third of December and was buried on the 6th of 19:33 December um so I had uh at one point many many 19:41 years later uh was uh standing in a uh a post office in Grover Beach probably I 19:47 would say in 2014 2015 um and I was waiting to mail some packages and there was another gentleman 19:53 there by the name of David Smallwood and he sort of came in and it happened to be the it happened to be November 22nd as 20:00 it turned out and he made some comment you know about this is the anniversary of the Kennedy assassination and blah 20:08 blah blah and can anybody believe that it was a lone gunman you know they still believe that and anyway so I mentioned 20:14 to him I said well I said if you're interested I can tell you an interesting story that most people have never heard 20:21 and he said you know I'd be interested in hearing that and uh so he waited for me outside as I finished up with uh 20:28 taking care of the packages that I was sending and then I began to tell him this this story that I've been relating 20:34 to you about Michael Groves and my uh my living next to his mother and father uh 20:40 da and Gladis uh as it turned out he uh publishes he published a local a local 20:48 paper um and uh he said you know this is a kind of an inter this might be an interesting story why don't we look into 20:55 this so for the next few months we began tracking down uh you know anybody who 21:01 was still alive you know we we uh tracked down a couple of other uh soldiers at that time but the one person 21:07 that we really kind of dug into was uh Bobby Hayden and he was in Alabama and I 21:15 think he was teaching at one of the colleges there he was teaching history at one of the colleges there and uh I 21:21 had had an opportunity at one point in tracking him down because there was an article about him in one of the Alabama 21:27 Gaz or one of the papers and that's how I got his name and uh Smallwood uh was 21:34 able to track him down and Smallwood had a conversation with him and then we set up um a um a telephone uh telephone 21:42 conference uh with Bobby Hayden and Bobby Hayden basically laid it all out 21:48 for us as to his involvement uh with becoming in the honor guard and it was 21:54 primarily I think because Harry because Truman I think wanted to um uh integrate the military uh so for 22:02 some 14 years or so nothing was done um and uh I think when Kennedy got in uh 22:11 became president I think the story goes that Jacqueline Kennedy said you know there are no there are no Black Faces in 22:17 the honor guard he she told uh John Kennedy I think you need to do something about that so the word was put out that 22:23 they were looking for members in the military who who were at least 6 feet 22:30 tall and had a college degree and uh at that time um uh Bobby Hayden uh applied 22:38 for the job uh he was interviewed um I don't know whether my understanding is 22:44 that that the interviewer didn't like him very much because they asked him whether or not he'd be willing to salute 22:50 the uh president of the United States and he said no I don't think so he didn't think really that there was a lot 22:56 of fairness in government and that there was too much racism um but they they 23:03 selected him to be a member of the honor guard and at that point his duty was really opening up a door when you know 23:10 when um when a guest arrived at the White House and opening the door and closing the door just standing there and 23:16 saluting when necessary um but he um uh 23:22 uh obviously uh gravitated to uh to doing more and more uh for the guard and 23:29 he became friends with Michael Groves who was now his captain um they 23:36 um from what I understand faton IED with with one another he would invite them over to his house and they would B have 23:43 barbecues he would invite a lot of the uh a lot of the uh African-American soldiers there to his house um I mean it 23:51 was actually grounds to be kicked out of the military to to do that with uh with 23:58 um uh with Junior soldiers and uh but I think they just 24:04 left Michael Groves alone and he became friends with what was known there were seven members of of the honor guard that 24:11 were African-American and they called themselves The Magnificent Seven so he so Bobby Hayden was one of the 24:17 Magnificent Seven um he was I think on leave a 72-hour 24:23 leave uh Bobby was when he heard that president 24:28 Kennedy was assassinated he immediately went back to the barracks and uh uh did 24:36 whatever duties he had to do uh and um 24:42 Michael Groves Captain Groves uh said after the funeral that he wanted he said 24:47 I'm gon to make you famous he said you're going to be the first person to stand guard at the Eternal Flame and and 24:54 at that point uh Hayden had probably slept you know all of the half a dozen 25:00 hours in three days so he was pretty exhausted but he put on some some a clean uniform and he stood guard um for 25:09 I'm not quite sure how long that was probably four hours he wanted the uh um 25:15 Captain Groves wanted him to to get there before the sun went down which he did and um after his um standing guard 25:24 he went back to the barracks and um the people in the other soldiers in 25:30 the Barrack said told him why don't you take a shower and why don't you get a bite to eat uh he says we have something 25:37 to tell you uh so he did and they sat him down they knew how close he was how 25:42 they all were pretty close to to Captain Groves and um they told him that Captain 25:48 Groves had died so this was he hears about this on 25:54 November 25th this is the same date that Kennedy was buried buried uh and 25:59 according to him uh the date of his funeral was 3 days later it was November 26:07 28th um interestingly enough the the White House and Arlington National 26:14 Cemetery have Captain Grove's death as December 3rd and his burial December 26:21 6th uh Bobby Hayden is adamant about the date he say it's it's not something that 26:28 I could forget he said that here's the day that we bury the president of the 26:33 United States and he says and and the captain of the Guard dies he said it's 26:40 just not a date that you confuse with something that happened you know a week 26:47 later um so we uh so uh so Dave 26:53 Smallwood wrote a wrote a piece up in uh in uh can't remember the name The 26:58 Gazette uh and uh he he ultimately sent it to the Dallas Museum on the fifth 27:06 floor the Dallas Museum and they accepted it and put it into their archives and I think from there um is uh 27:15 how um Rick rouso read the article and reached out to uh Dave Smallwood and 27:22 then ultimately reached out to me not too long ago and um that basically the 27:27 story um you know other than the the other fact was that when I lived in 27:33 Birmingham um you know couple of interesting anecdotal things with uh 27:39 with Don Groves he worked for the Ford Motor Company heavy truck division up in 27:46 Pontiac Michigan and um he always had this God 27:51 awful car parked in front of his house uh he would uh as a I guess he was an 27:56 executive there uh and he would order um I believe I'm 28:02 not a car person because when I first showed up in Michigan I was driving a Volvo so that tells you how much uh 28:09 people had never seen a Volvo in Michigan back in 1971 um uh but he ordered this God aful 28:17 car you know it had like a leopard top with a zebra interior you know with a 28:23 continental kit out the back you know a foot and a half two feet out you know with these great big white walls I mean 28:31 it was a real pimpmobile you know uh just certainly not anything you know 28:36 that that fit the Don Groves look because he went to work every day in a 28:43 mercedesbenz but this car was parked you know specifically in front of his home 28:50 and um every day whether he went to work or whether he didn't go to work he got a 28:56 paycheck if he was drunk that day and didn't go to work never got fired got 29:02 promoted um I think his feeling that his son was killed and you know by the 29:08 government and what they were doing is they were basically paying him to shut up and um and his and his way of of 29:18 reacting to that was every year he'd get a different car that car was supposed to 29:24 be handed down to a lower executive to drive but the car was basically sent 29:30 back and completely dismantled and junked and every year he ordered another 29:36 car and it was more ghastly than the last one and it parked in front of his 29:41 house um uh so at one point um uh I had 29:47 an opportunity to meet the daughter Darby uh so uh I would say probably 29:56 1972 um I met the daughter very shortly after having dinner with the Groves 30:02 where he divulged this information about his son and and his belief and showed showed me pictures um of the of the 30:09 funeral that was supplied by the government I don't know if it was the military the White House but it was 30:15 supplied by the government and by the way that he also showed me a letter from Mark Lane Mark Lane wrote a letter to to 30:22 The Groves and is basically identifying himself as saying he represent Ed 30:29 margarit Oswald which was Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and in it there's a 30:35 quotation that he put in quote from Margaret Oswell saying my son Lee was 30:42 killed like your son by the government and my son had a CIA number thus and 30:49 such and so and so well I I wish I had a photographic memory that I could remember the CIA number you know uh 30:57 anyway they were making some introduction with uh with the Groves so 31:03 I don't think that Mark Lane reached out to the Groves I think that very likely 31:08 the Groves had reached out to Mark Lane because Mark Lane was the first one to write the book you know rush to judgment 31:14 and I think based upon them seeing that someone else didn't believe this the the 31:21 the official story you know um I think they probably reached out to him and 31:26 then he sent a letter back to them at some point I tried to get a hold of uh 31:31 Mark Lane because I think he was on Facebook and I tried to identify myself as having lived next to the Groves is I 31:38 I heard nothing back from from Mark Lane and to be honest with you I don't think Mark Lane is alive today if he is he's 31:45 very he's not he yes he's passed that's correct he has passed he has passed uh anyway the the the the daughter Darby 31:53 got out of her car and she's she parked in front of my house because she couldn't couldn't park in front of her 31:58 parents' house because this great big Lincoln Continental was sitting in front of that house so he parked in front I 32:04 was right next door so she got out of the car happened to be standing there she looked at me and she said you know 32:10 are you the neighbor that my father had dinner with and spoke about my brother and I said yeah yes I am and she just 32:16 said you know they killed my brother you know she said and and and she was she 32:21 was taking two of her children out of the car and she said and they and they 32:27 threatened me they told me that if I didn't shut up that I I I wouldn't see 32:32 my kids that they'd take my kids away from me or they would commit her something to 32:38 that effect and it was a they so she wasn't she didn't say you know it was this person or that person it was just a 32:46 they um so it was you know more confirmation that everybody in the family was uh you know definitely uh 32:53 believed that uh something nefarious had happened U uh first first with Don and 32:59 glattus a son and certainly with h with Darby's brother U anyway we looked into 33:05 all of that we attempted to track down some information I went looking on um uh 33:13 uh one of the websites that does DNA uh 33:19 ancestry.com um there was an article that was written on n.com they were looking into whatever happened to Mary 33:28 um uh Groves she had gone back a week after 33:35 uh I a week I think it was on December 12th or something um she came back well 33:42 probably a couple of days before that she came back to Birmingham she had rented an apartment and uh and and a 33:49 mysterious fire broke out in in her apartment and all of her husband's uh um 33:57 records files were destroyed in the fire and uh I think that I don't know 34:05 whether or not there were two photo albums you know one perhaps in uh 34:12 Captain Grove's widow's possession and one in Captain Grove's parents 34:17 possession but I certainly saw one of the photo albums of the funeral um and I 34:22 certainly saw the Mark Lane letter that was written to G in gladus groves so 34:31 um uh interestingly I moved back to California in 34:37 1975 um and uh three years later um 34:43 Darby died I don't know what she died of she was in her 30s I gather at the time 34:50 and um she predeceased uh both her parents um 34:58 and that that's pretty much the story that I have to tell I you know uh every once in a while I go back and I think of 35:04 some other little tidbit you know that I you know that I that I remember and uh I 35:10 said oh I should have mentioned that but uh um there's just I've read you know 35:17 I've read articles about all of the people who died um that been kind of 35:22 connected in some way you know with the Kennedy assassination whether they're on whether they were on the grassy nle you 35:29 know whether they heard shots coming from you know the grassy the you know the grassy null or from from The Book 35:37 Depository or whatever uh you know people people died I mean lots of people 35:42 may have had heart attacks might have died of cancer there's lots of people you know that fall into that category 35:48 I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are then obviously there were other people who um you know had more um you 35:55 know more more tell they saw something they heard something um uh they were 36:01 police officers uh they were reporters um you know that also died 36:06 people know Dorothy kill Gallen for example you know had interviews the next thing you know she's has a bombshell 36:13 report the next thing she's found dead the report is given to her assistant 36:18 who's who dies two days later I mean these are the kinds of story but regardless of who they are there was 36:25 never any mention of Captain Michael David 36:32 Groves and that name was never mentioned I mean I'm the only one that has been trying to get this name out you know for 36:39 someone to do more more research was he in bomb the 27y old uh captain of the 36:46 guard at 27 dies of a heart attack who determin 36:53 that quite quite yeah I was going to say I a couple of questions for you um did 36:59 the family ever express a position or a a conclusion on 37:07 what they thought was the reason for the delay or the error in the uh in the 37:14 dates of his death I mean it doesn't seem particularly if it was such a public event that might have been 37:21 chronicled in so many different ways perhaps in the paper or otherwise that they would still be able to have his 37:29 funeral and uh still have a a more than a week's difference between the actual 37:36 date that yeah no and you know what that wasn't that that wasn't brought up then and uh and and the reason that I'm 37:43 bringing it up is because I subsequently was looking up uh uh the date of his 37:49 death in the in the in the white house uh in some White House papers and also 37:54 um at Arlington so in one of the White House documents it mentions that he died 38:00 on the thir and he was buried on the 6th and his and and the uh headstone at 38:05 Arlington National Cemetery says the third and the sixth but that wasn't brought up by The Groves at that time 38:12 they never mention that to me I hadn't heard about that only thing I the only thing I heard about was after the fact 38:19 in other words after I looked into it I said I don't get it these two dates are completely conflicting so never one of 38:25 the reasons why I was talking to Bobby Hayden Bobby Hayden then goes no he didn't die on the third I was notified 38:32 that he died the day wased so um you know that that stuck in my mind that 38:40 here's a guy on the scene at the time um standing uh standing guard at the 38:45 Eternal Flame and then coming back to the barracks and then being told that evening that Captain Michael Groves had 38:52 died of a heart attack um so the numbers uh Michael um cap Bobby Bobby Hayden um 39:00 says no that's a wrong date and his his response to that was oh they got it wrong they made a mistake it was very 39:09 busy did the parents uh obviously they they had their suspicions were there 39:14 other particulars that they might have uh touched upon obviously it sounds like 39:20 he was quite sensitive to being quiet about it maybe perhaps given 39:26 the circumstance that you described but were there other times other than that 39:32 sort of initial conversation I get I get the impression that that that was said 39:38 um and I think that much of it they were holding close to the vest okay so I didn't get the impression 39:46 that uh this was some this this didn't seem to be something that they spoke with every neighbor about as a matter of 39:52 fact um uh I remember after having dinner there uh I was talking to some of 39:58 the other neighbors because on the other side of them was was a couple Jackie om 40:03 Ali and her husband and other people that we had become friends with in the neighborhood um they indicated to me 40:10 that uh that I should stay away from the Groves as that they were 40:16 troubled uh and I and I thought told them you know I think that they're very nice people they're very respectful 40:23 people um you know they have a story to tell they don't beli that their you know son um just died of a heart 40:31 attack uh and they basically said stay away from them I don't know what they I don't know 40:39 if you know if they were there they may have been living there during the during 40:45 the uh 1963 I don't know I didn't show up until 40:52 1971 I don't think but I didn't really have ongoing conversations with them about it it just appeared to me that 41:00 this was something that they spoke about they didn't want to talk about it anymore in other words they didn't want 41:05 me to know any more than they had already said and uh and it may be 41:11 something that they were being protective of me sure sure you know they basically you know gladus said you know 41:19 you know my husband likes you you rem you you remind him of his son that I 41:25 reminded of you know Don Groves of of Michael Groves you know I was you know 41:31 in in in my late 20s you know I was married I had a kid that was three years 41:36 old four years old you know uh uh he at that time at the time of of Michael 41:42 gross's death his he had a a daughter kellyanne I believe and his wife was 41:48 pregnant seven months so um we were my wife and I and and son at that time were 41:55 about the same age as his son wife and child were then and I I guess I had uh I my 42:05 appearance was similar to his his son and I think he took to me that basically 42:11 all I can all I can surmise did you did you ever subsequently catch up with with Mary was 42:19 there some no matter of fact I attempted to only thing I was ever able to find out was I I think she she remarried her 42:28 last name became Johnson I mean as if as if that's not a 42:33 you know that's a hard enough name to track down anyway you know so Johnson 42:39 and I don't know what ever happened to her and uh even in the ancestry.com piece um they don't know 42:46 what happened to her they were never able to track her down they were actually asking for people to if they 42:52 had any information to please come back to them with it I don't know if she if she left Birmingham I never met with her 42:59 in Birmingham and I don't and I don't believe she um was living in Birmingham 43:05 at the time I never in the years that I lived next to him I didn't see her show 43:10 up at um da and Gladis his house nor did I see the uh the grandkids show up the 43:16 only the only grandchildren I saw show up were Barbie's children interesting how about the 43:23 autopsy report you you touched upon that briefly before uh were you ever able to 43:30 gain access or was anyone else ever one one would think there should have been one because I don't think when you die 43:37 of a heart attack at 27 um that you have to have an autopsy I 43:43 mean it's certainly in California that's a requirement you know unless you've been suffering from some terminal 43:49 illness like cancer you know uh uh or dealing with uh or dealing with the 43:56 cardiovascular diseases you know on a for years and years and years and then all of a sudden you die you know there 44:03 may there may not it may not be necessary depending upon your age if you're over 65 or something like that to 44:09 have an autopsy but if you're younger than 65 and you and you die I I in 44:15 California there's a law that you have to have an autopsy so I don't know what it was like in uh uh in uh in Virginia 44:24 uh or in Washington at that time what the requirement may or may not have been and I don't know that there is an 44:31 autopsy it would be interesting to find out were you uh I think you may have 44:37 mentioned perhaps in our earlier conversation before uh we got together for this Taping that you may have 44:43 tracked down and reached other members of the of the guard and if you did can 44:49 you comment were there other comments made by them regarding this whole circumstance the 44:56 only thing that I can say about not only my my contact uh with them but also Dave 45:03 Smallwood's contact with them is they all had a sort of a canned response they 45:09 all they all repeated almost exactly uh what they were told uh if you spoke to 45:15 any one of them um they all sounded exactly the same uh when you ask him was 45:21 there any chatter about uh you know uh the assassination being done by the 45:28 Russians or the assassination by the Cubans was there any you know was there any of that um chatter going on among 45:37 the members of the military everybody says no um nobody was talking about that and 45:44 everybody it's it's kind of like uh it it reminded me a little bit of the movie The Manchurian Candidate where you know 45:52 nobody likes um nobody likes this particular officer and yet anytime 45:57 someone says what do you think about so so they would say oh he's the kindest 46:02 bra wonderful person I've ever had the opportunity to meet that's what they 46:08 would come out with that would be kind of like just this mechanic this mechanic 46:14 uh basically telling you this story but in reality in the movie nobody nobody 46:19 likes him everybody despises him but when ask what they think about him they 46:24 immediately come up the same statement interesting so I uh that's quite um 46:33 that's quite a quite a story quite a story and the other point that I was goingon to make is we contacted one 46:38 person and we spoke to the wife instead of the husband because the husband was 46:45 suffering from dementia perhaps Alzheimer's I think she said he's got Alzheimer's and it wouldn't be any it 46:52 wouldn't be any point talking with him so we spoke with her she was also you 46:57 know obviously the husband was was was based in Washington so I guess so was she and she basically said the same 47:03 thing in other words the same thing that the other participants at that time were 47:09 saying she was saying the same thing so so it they were given they were told 47:15 this story that's what they ran with and that and B other than the fact that what 47:21 they were doing at the time whether they were retrieving the casket or attempting to retrieve casket from the plane cuz 47:27 there was that because that was part of the part of the cemetery Squad there you know that's what the that's what the 47:34 what the honor guard did in essence besides being being the public face of the White House they were involved in 47:40 funerals and they were involved in retrieving the Cascades and so on and so forth besides many of these people 47:46 talking about when we got there the Secret Service would not let us do our job you know they told us to move away 47:52 they didn't want us to handle a casket so on and so forth and how they followed them you know how they followed the the 47:59 the the the the uh the the uh the limousine with the with Kennedy's body 48:04 and how they went to the to the took him to the morg and so on and so forth everybody has that story so they mostly 48:11 tell their they mostly tell their involvement of it but there isn't much 48:17 going on in terms of anything else it's that I found they they they really 48:23 displayed no new information to me the only person that I found to be 48:29 interesting was Bobby Hayden and that was because number one he was surprised 48:34 about the date of death because he says no that's not the right date and um he 48:41 didn't want to specifically talk about um uh any any uh conspiracy theories and 48:49 interestingly enough he was interestingly enough he was in I think he was invited back to the White House 48:56 under the Obama Administration and he met with President Obama and and his name was read into the 49:03 Congressional Record by someone you know who was then a representative in in in 49:09 Washington at the time they read his name into the Congressional Record and I asked him about his meeting with Obama 49:16 and did did he did he bring up this issue about about about the Kennedy 49:22 assassination and he says I'm not going to discuss any anything that we spoke about in the White 49:28 House interesting certainly imply said you 49:33 know hey he's a black guy you know you're a black guy the president's been murdered he's now the president did you 49:40 tell him hey guy you need to be careful or something you know no he wouldn't he wouldn't discuss anything that they 49:47 spoke of interesting very interesting do you have uh obviously it would be total 49:53 speculation based upon the conversation we just had but do you have in your own mind some Theory as to why they uh 50:03 postdated so to speak the obituary well I think number one they 50:09 were trying to put distance between his death and and and 50:14 the Kennedy assassination I mean um the fact that it was you know uh you know a 50:20 week later whatever that length of time is there was a lot of other things going on in the media wasn't in a frenzy they' 50:27 already buried the they'd already buried uh uh uh uh Kennedy um uh Lee Harvey 50:33 Oswald was buried as well I think may may very well have been on the very same day could have been on the on the on 50:40 November 25th I'm not I'm not sure um but he was disposed up pretty quickly um 50:47 and uh uh Michael um Michael Captain Michael Groves is the closest thing to 50:54 the White House house in other words if you take all of these conspiracy theories and I don't care which one they 51:01 are the Russians the Cubans the Israelis the the Mafia the the some combination 51:08 of the people who were pissed off at the Bay of Pigs you know whatever whatever you want to deal with throw them all 51:14 throw them all in a big basket okay Michael grov is the closest thing to the 51:19 White House everybody else is in almost peripheral to that if Michael gr's death 51:28 occurs on the 20 on the 25th of no of November the day of Kennedy's uh Dave 51:33 Kennedy burial okay and he dies under mysterious circumstances you know and 51:39 then whatever happens in Burmingham Michigan on the 12th or whenever that 51:44 happens and a house and an apartment fire destroys all of Michael gr's 51:49 memorabilia you know I I think they tried to push that as far as they could 51:55 away away from the White House the the uh other I don't know if this is a fact 52:00 you may be able to validate this but I did read somewhere that you know 52:05 obviously these uh these folks were handpicked and at one point uh Michael 52:12 himself actually babysitted John John is that true yeah I did hear that yeah and 52:18 that was because they both had young children both both both the Kennedy and and the and and Michael Gro and his wife 52:24 had had a young child and uh they they according to according to the parents 52:29 they became uh pretty friendly again uh once again I think it had to do with the 52:35 fact that Michael Groves was hand selected by Kennedy to to be the captain of the 52:41 Guard um and again I'm not sure you know it would be very interesting to talk to 52:47 some military people because I don't know whether things have changed at the White House you know and and and what 52:53 the parents were telling me that it is in fact fact the military Outpost and that and that the that third regiment or 53:00 whatever that the guard basically protects the commanderin-chief of the Armed 53:05 Forces um uh yeah 53:12 I how about I think they got pretty I think they got pretty close because of their because of the association with 53:18 their wives and and their kids yeah I mean you have to wonder especially Jacqueline in the a aftermath having 53:26 somebody in that J to position pass so quickly who was clearly for all intents and purpose as a 53:33 healthy individual and uh I I would think well where did where did Jacqueline Kennedy go she ran to 53:42 Onasis yeah no doubt no doubt I mean she she wanted to leave the 53:48 country I think she also probably ran to Robert Kennedy as well I think that the relationship that they had uh 53:56 look what happened to him yeah yeah for sure

Subtract 54:00 from the transcript times to find them saying it: absolutely Rick I know we have you 54:02 on mute but I know you're probably chomping at the bit to ask uh David 54:08 questions H actually what I wanted to say is uh how I found out about uh the 54:14 captain Michael Grove story to begin with uh I think I was one day just surfing the 54:20 internet and I came across an excerpt that was uh from a book called JFK the dead 54:28 Witnesses by Craig Roberts and John Armstrong and uh they had a story that 54:35 that basically uh stated uh Captain Michael D Groves who commanded the JFK 54:41 honor guard for Kennedy's funeral died under mysterious 54:46 circumstances seven days after the funeral while eating dinner he took a 54:52 bite of food paused brief YY as a pained look came over his face then passed out 55:00 fell face down into his plate and he died instantly on December 12th his 55:07 possessions and momentos which had been sent home to 55:12 Birmingham uh Michigan were destroying the fire of mysterious origin the honor 55:19 guard for some mysterious reason had been practicing for presidential funeral 55:26 3 days before the Pres Kennedy's assassination Captain Gro was 27 years 55:32 old at the time of his death and the cause of death unknown and then 55:37 parenthesis possibly poison now um that was 55:44 basically uh what the so-called uh JFK research 55:49 Community um was speculating about why this man had died 55:56 because he and his honor guard were rehearsing for uh you know the death of 56:02 a of a president that coincidentally was just three days before the assassination 56:08 and I think that you know they assume that perhaps uh this is because he had 56:14 some pre-knowledge that perhaps you know Kennedy's assassination was going to 56:20 happen well I looked into I looked into that aspect of the story 56:25 and what I found out was it was not uncommon for the honor guard at least 56:31 twice a month to rehearse for for these kind of things to begin with but at that 56:37 time people were concerned about president Herbert Hoover and he was Ill 56:44 to the point where you know people started to think well maybe we should be prepared for this and it was Hoover's 56:51 possible funeral that they had been rehearsing uh just a few few days before the Kennedy assassination so obviously 56:58 there's no connection there at all with uh W with that story but uh nevertheless and I 57:05 think you found this to be true as well David if you go on the internet to try to to find out anything 57:12 about Michael Groves uh other than the article that uh David Smallwood wrote 57:18 with you uh and a and a couple other the things uh it's almost like he doesn't 57:24 exist EX in fact I don't know if you tried I 57:29 actually went online to the JFK Library typed in his name you know just to see 57:35 what they said about this man who had a very important job at the White House as you stated and nothing comes up at all 57:43 under his name on at the JFK uh uh library and then I thought well maybe 57:48 I'm just doing it wrong but you know but you know for the heck of it I typed in 57:54 one of the other Honor Guard members name in that group James Felder and his name came up six times right in in you 58:02 know so you almost get the sense that somebody is trying to erase the 58:08 existence uh and the story of the life of Michael Groves for for whatever 58:14 reason yeah that's certainly the impression that I got and uh not only 58:20 not only do I feel that they uh are um attempting to erase him as I said when I 58:27 lived in when I lived in Birmingham Michigan the local high school was called Groves High uh 58:35 subsequently right after that or shortly after that it became Birmingham high so 58:41 I think they're getting rid of the name Groves all together well um the something else I 58:49 came across I thought was interesting is uh and this is from the UPI and the the caption reads Captain's 58:57 death uh bear with me for a second yeah here we go Captain's death called another 59:05 slaying tragedy and then it reads from Washington representative James Falton 59:12 republican from Pennsylvania told the house Wednesday so this is this is just 59:19 a few hours after they're saying that Groves died uh the very next day the 59:24 house Wednesday that the death of the army Captain who directed military honors at President Kennedy's funeral 59:31 was another tragedy stemming from the assassination 27-year-old Captain 59:37 Michael D Groves commanding officer of the honor guard company of the first Battalion third infantry Old Guard 59:45 collapsed and died while eating dinner Tuesday night an army spokesman said the 59:51 death was due to a heart attack Fulton said Groves quote overtaxed himself end 59:59 quote in his duties his death is another tragic inent incident that flowed from 1:00:07 this attack on the government of the United States it could be said that he died in the service of his country and 1:00:15 that his was a job well done uhuh groes commanded the Old Guard unit that keeps 1:00:21 Perpetual uh watch at the Tomb of the Unknown at Arlington National Cemetery 1:00:27 during president's funeral he directed honor guards at the White House the capitol rotunda and the Arlington 1:00:33 Cemetery and and the kesan Detachment now what I and again this is 1:00:42 just me a a and I could be totally off Bas on this it's almost like a 1:00:49 misdirection is going on here you've got somebody on the house of the uh Congress 1:00:55 talking about the death of Michael Groves he's given a funeral so similar 1:01:00 to President Kennedy's that somebody who happened to be witnessing this going on 1:01:07 thought that they were doing a recreation of Kennedy's you know uh 1:01:12 funeral uh for a movie or something right and then I think you told me I I 1:01:17 can't I can't remember so I thought I i' toss it to you how far did you tell me 1:01:25 that Groves was buried at Arlington from President Kennedy's grave I don't I 1:01:31 don't know that I I don't know that I mentioned that to you and I don't think I know that but I can tell you that in 1:01:38 my in my conversation with da and glattus Groves um that they uh uh that when they 1:01:46 were going down Pennsylvania Avenue you know with the lone horse you know with 1:01:53 the queson with the whole the whole routine that looked very much it looked 1:01:58 very much like what happened uh um with with uh JFK and they were under the impression 1:02:06 by people that were just standing around that it was a more or less a reenactment for some kind of a 1:02:13 documentary right right okay that's what they that's that's the way they felt 1:02:19 what was going on there and they were more or less being isolated from anybody from any 1:02:26 reporters or any anybody like that in other words if that's what people were 1:02:31 led to believe they wanted them to continue to be led to believe to believe that yeah you you know I I was just 1:02:40 gonna say that uh I I just wonder what gave his parents and his sister such a 1:02:49 definitive sense of the fact that they think that he was poisoned and that he 1:02:54 was murdered as you know even though the heart attack story makes no sense for 1:02:59 for for a young man his age and in his shape but nevertheless uh what made them 1:03:05 feel so definitively that you know that this was not the the the one the well there's one 1:03:13 person that's missing out of all of this and supposedly that's supposed to be the eyewitness to his death and that's 1:03:20 allegedly his wife yeah right to be found yeah I was just going 1:03:26 to say that I mean she you know interestingly enough I think if she were just around his age she'd be in her late 1:03:31 80s right now if she were still alive and she really I think if we if someone 1:03:37 could track her down would be quite revealing uh if she was there and and 1:03:42 perhaps if he was uh relaying very intimate details of what he thought or 1:03:49 what might have been seen in those couple of days right uh right before the 1:03:54 uh his death I think that's a really critical thing I think if there's one opportunity it's that person and of 1:04:00 course to to what extent if she's not alive that she passed some of that down to kellyanne and her perhaps her second 1:04:09 child that was she was pregnant with at right and OB and obviously and obviously 1:04:15 Michael Groves his uh sister you know had much the same feelings as the 1:04:21 parents did and and I believe it might very well come you know from um from 1:04:26 gr's Widow you know from Captain gr's Widow you know she had firsthand 1:04:32 knowledge of this that's the story that that's the story that was being fed to everybody that you know he went home he 1:04:39 was having dinner he had a heart attack his fa he he fell face first you know 1:04:44 into his food you know this is the kind of routine you know that that the the 1:04:50 the the uh the um um powers that be basically wrote down and this was the 1:04:57 and this was what everybody said when you spoke to them whether it be Felder you know whether you whether we spoke to 1:05:03 anybody else that was out there that was the story one one has to one has to 1:05:08 wonder about the extent of the funeral though there are some very specific criteria for an individual being 1:05:16 eligible for a state funeral I think you have to be at a certain rank within the 1:05:22 military and I'm certain it's above captain and there is a notable exception understand it is above captain and I 1:05:29 think there's a notable exception for the commander-in chief so if you're the president you're you're AFF fored the 1:05:34 state funeral so why it it does beg the question when he was not eligible as uh 1:05:42 probably as heartfelt as it might have been for the military to want especially in that moment of morning generally to 1:05:49 want to do something quite special particularly for somebody uh in the Old Guard that was close to him and had 1:05:55 prepared his own funeral certainly uh some poetic element to that uh but at 1:06:01 the end of the day why would they bring more attention if something were were more nefarious I think the one question 1:06:09 uh and it does sound quite nefarious if you uh you know if you ask the basic question around this but why would they 1:06:16 bring so much attention by giving him a state funeral was it a way to assuage his parents maybe perhaps I don't know 1:06:22 yeah I think so and it's another question I don't know you know they're they're basically talking about how they 1:06:29 started out from the White House okay um so that means that his 1:06:35 body had to be moved um you know because if he was brought to the hospital um he 1:06:41 was B he was probably brought to Walter Reed because he was in he was an army 1:06:47 guy uh you know as as opposed to Bethesda you know which is a Navy uh 1:06:53 thing uh uh so then he and if he went to a mg then he had to then be moved so 1:06:59 allegedly this whole thing started out at the White House I don't know where that casket was and how it where it was 1:07:05 brought you know for all we know he died in the White 1:07:11 House well I that miss this that's why we're calling that's why we are calling 1:07:16 this you know mystery the enduring secret uh may may I read you one more 1:07:23 version of the official story uh this comes from William 1:07:28 Manchester's book death of a president uh and it reads during the 1:07:35 winter of 1963-64 several people had played 1:07:41 peripheral roles in the events of the previous November died unexpectedly or 1:07:48 fell victims to strange violence so had the 27-year-old Captain 1:07:57 who had been Lieutenant Sam Bird's Superior officer throughout the capital 1:08:03 ceremonial farewells to the president the previous September he had passed his 1:08:09 regular army physical his cardiogram had been normal 10 days after the burial in 1:08:16 Arlington he took a day off and toppled over at his dinner table the victim of a 1:08:22 heart attack right now again uh that's about one of the 1:08:30 only other things you could find about this whole story it's interesting that Manchester happened to mention it as 1:08:35 well in his book although he doesn't mention Groves by name right uh so uh 1:08:41 well you know oh I was just gonna say Rick I I think the other aspect of this you you hear when you have so many 1:08:49 dubious deaths and you hear why or actually the source of why they might have died heart attack comes up quite 1:08:56 often uh and obviously as a military officer and part of the army as you 1:09:03 indicate he would have gone to Walter Reed and they would have controlled the autopsy there so at the end of the day 1:09:11 again if you're suggesting potentially you know any sort of Nefarious Behavior they 1:09:16 would have controlled the outcome of that autopsy because it would not have been done I don't think in a civilian 1:09:22 environment it would have been it would have been done at Walter Reed 1:09:27 presumably well we seem to be faced with three questions 1:09:33 here how did he die when did he die and why did he die and the 1:09:41 contradiction obviously is we're told that he died from a heart attack yet his 1:09:47 parents and sister firmly believe he was poisoned when did he die we're told to 1:09:53 December 3rd but according to Bobby Lee Hayden it was uh the evening of November 1:10:01 25th and then of course we get into the situation that if he was poisoned why was he 1:10:08 murdered and uh perhaps that would bring us to uh to our story about bethesa 1:10:15 naval hospital um when I started to look into the Grove 1:10:22 story and and going on the internet and that's how I found David Smallwood and his article and then by extension David 1:10:31 turned me on to David uh Blanco and then he filled me in on his experience with 1:10:37 gr's family uh this jogged my memory as to a conversation that I had 1:10:44 in April of 1997 with a man by the name of Donald rebentish 1:10:50 and uh Donald was a a member of a group of men at Bethesda who actually received 1:10:59 President Kennedy's casket and body uh late that afternoon and uh perhaps would would 1:11:06 would this be the time to to go into our uh audio clip uh Jeff sure yeah sure we 1:11:12 can do that give me a moment and I I will pull that up and this is this is a 1:11:19 rather unfortunately this is listening to a recording through a microphone so 1:11:25 it arguably will be uh will be strained to hear it but let's let's give it a 1:11:34 go and anyway I happened to have duty that day in fact in the 1:11:40 morning we found out what was going on in Dallas they told us to report to the Master at Arms office and I did and uh 1:11:50 things were really things were different you know I've been Navy quite a while and I'm 1:11:55 pretty used to procedure I a senior py officer second class py officer and we 1:12:00 went to our duty station and anyway the officer of the day you know I've been around naval officers all my life as the 1:12:07 officer of the day all a sudden we had a army Captain young fell and we were told 1:12:13 that he was going to be in charge of all us they sealed the uh the hospital in 1:12:19 fact as they armed some of their Sailors that were there that were going to staff guard up the gate you know to the in and out of the 1:12:26 hospital and told them they didn't care if was a festar adal nobody's going in nobody's going out but at 4:00 in the 1:12:33 afternoon they told us that they were going to break the body up and the back they told us that absolutely they 1:12:39 explain what it was they were said they were going to uh have the gos chase the 1:12:45 up Wisconsin Avenue and they actually bringing his body in and going the back 1:12:51 and I was one of the Five County officers that was 1:12:56 was what was sorry interrupt you but when you say the did you say the golds that's how explained to us chase 1:13:04 the what what are they are desable people apparently that 1:13:10 were looking for the sensation of the thing oh theh oh I see oh okay I'm sorry 1:13:16 to interrupt and anyway I at 4:00 the afternoon it made absolute sense to me 1:13:22 what they were you know of course you know you're not a you're not a church much youngil back in 1:13:29 those days but that plan of action AB the only that didn't make sense we were 1:13:34 taking from army officer ranking offer you know just two stripes an army 1:13:43 Captain which isn't which isn't much the officer never happened prior to 1:13:50 that that was unprecedented I'll tell you a little bit more about that but 1:13:58 anyway but he didn't he didn't tell you exactly what time he he didn't tell me any that I really wasn't interested I 1:14:04 just tell him what I know right but there was no in my mind what they were 1:14:10 going to do we were ahead of time exactly what they were going to do and and they did it I mean this was no 1:14:16 surpris me everything well the thing is is having someone with another affiliation uh you know other than the 1:14:23 na coming up to you and tell you didn't you have to second guess that and say hey wa minut let me check with my 1:14:30 Superior if the army officer was there in the chief Master arms office and you 1:14:35 know here's the old chief that we're working for he's saying hey guys this is the way it is I right I believe there 1:14:41 was aior officer there too what was the chief what was the chief's name at that I can't remember because those people 1:14:46 are all stff and we were students and like I told this a huge pleas probably two three, military 1:14:53 right you know there's probably 10 different Duty stations and and we only 1:14:59 duty about once every two every three weeks I know people 1:15:04 and told let me tell you more about this you get rumor here one of the things 1:15:10 that all guys could get over the fact was army officer in charge that was one 1:15:15 thing that I I just could never sh and then you know and again it's probably 1:15:22 all just the story that we got back the to be down there was that this young guy was 1:15:27 under so much stress he ended up having a heart attack and he died first we just dropped if it was true not it it was 1:15:36 just so abely took over our duty station the 1:15:41 was charge us and it was absolutely army officer and he was captain of the 1:15:47 army it's incredible he was probably 33 1:15:52 30 33 1:16:03 well I really I I'll I'll reiterate what basically happened in my conversation 1:16:09 with uh when I interviewed uh Donald rentes in April of 1997 you know uh I was just doing it to 1:16:16 get his overall story because uh I was of the understanding that he and at that 1:16:22 time the belief was well along with Dennis David had received uh President Kennedy's casket 1:16:28 which was a shipping casket uh you know 20 to 30 minutes before Jackie Kennedy 1:16:33 arrived in front of Bethesda in a gray ambulance carrying the bronze casket uh 1:16:38 from Dallas and and so one of the things that jumped out during that uh interview 1:16:45 with with Robin Tesh was the fact that he would into the debt you know many 1:16:50 years later still stuck with him he could not get over the fact that when he went to his duty station that afternoon 1:16:57 uh to be told what you know what he would be doing not knowing anything that was about to happen he was told by his 1:17:04 Superior that he would be taking his orders from this young Army Captain 1:17:10 which was unprecedented an army captain in a naval setting giving orders uh 1:17:17 never happened before during or since so in any in any event um rentes ands up 1:17:23 taking his orders from this captain and they received Kennedy's casket uh around 1:17:28 6:30 in the evening but the interesting part is uh David is that they were told 1:17:34 by this Army Captain around four o'clock in the afternoon that they would be 1:17:40 receiving the president's body and that there would be another uh casket in a gray ambulance that would be arriving uh 1:17:48 in the front of the hospital and that was a diversion uh so he knew uh he knew ahead 1:17:55 of time uh you know that this was going to happen and it made perfect sense to rentes that they would be doing this 1:18:02 kind of thing for security reasons you know this diversion if you may uh but but the person who's over seeing this 1:18:09 whole operation who knows ahead of time that that they will be receiving the casket 1:18:15 at this particular time around 6:30 at Bethesda and bringing it into the morg I 1:18:21 is is a young Army captain who then rebent Tesh finds out uh sometime after 1:18:26 that that he died uh within a week later now in my 1:18:32 opinion he's describing Captain Michael D Groves now it would make sense to me 1:18:39 uh if they needed somebody that they could trust to oversee such a situation 1:18:45 of in a clandestine man are bringing in the body of the president unbeknownst to 1:18:51 everybody you know for the reason reasons whatever reasons they were doing it uh they could probably trust you know 1:18:59 the captain of the White House honor guard with the w with this job and and and so I believe that with the knowledge 1:19:06 of what he participated in and perhaps other things that he was aware of that took place after the fact EP bethesa 1:19:14 that night was almost dangerous knowledge and who knows over that 1:19:21 weekend who he told or what he said that perhaps you know created and again this 1:19:28 is speculation but you know created a situation that that ultimately caused 1:19:33 his uh his death and uh and the other thing is is that if we didn't have 1:19:40 rentes and it all and also um rentes was 1:19:46 interviewed seven years before I did uh by author Harry 1:19:51 Livingstone and and Livingstone just had a a brief sentence in h a book he wrote called 1:19:58 killing the truth where he states that uh rentes told him that uh rentes REM 1:20:04 remembers the Color Guard Captain and said that he died a week later from the 1:20:11 strain so that's something that uh Rees didn't even tell me as far as mentioning Color 1:20:17 Guard Captain um but NE nevertheless uh if 1:20:22 weren't for rentes we wouldn't even know that there was an Army captain on on 1:20:28 site at Bethesda and and part of a a group of people receiving the president's body uh so these are 1:20:37 circumstances that you know perhaps point to uh to to some answers about the 1:20:42 uh the death of groves no doubt I mean these are uh 1:20:51 clearly things that that are questionable I think that's the the way 1:20:57 you have to put it I think the the you have to you have to presume that the 1:21:05 activities that weekend were something so 1:21:10 secretive that for whatever reason whether they were right or they were wrong or whether there was something more to them that we don't really quite 1:21:17 understand yet the actions that were taken if they were in fact taken to shut 1:21:24 him up were pretty severe I mean obviously they had lots of people involved in this 1:21:30 exercise and there were many people most of them all of them were compelled to 1:21:36 sign secrecy agreements so why wouldn't they just have done the same thing with 1:21:42 him why would his involvement have been so of such a nature that there was a 1:21:47 need to perhaps do something or go go further with it I mean if in fact it was 1:21:53 nefarious I you know I always ask those kind of questions in this this kind of circumstance it certainly it begs the 1:22:01 question well one of the things that his family believed was that because um because he was more or less 1:22:08 in command of the White House by virtue of a position that 1:22:16 he you know that he was appointed to by by by the president um I you know and 1:22:22 I'm not again not can't say with any definitiveness that that was his job 1:22:29 that in other words if the if the president uh dies that the H that the captain of the Guard assumes assumes 1:22:37 control over the White House over the so-called Fort you know or the or the 1:22:43 post and he's privy to all of the communications into and out of the White 1:22:49 House for that four or five hours it is very likely that he heard 1:22:56 something yeah I I think I mean of all the all that we've discussed today I 1:23:01 think that's the one clearly delineating factor I don't think it's necessarily what may have happened or what he might 1:23:07 have seen at the autopsy given uh the fact that so many others were involved 1:23:13 and they just essentially signed secrecy agreements and that was it I think he was prohibited much more and your 1:23:21 comments regarding what made happened at the White House are also I think pretty extensive I mean obviously it's a 1:23:26 cumulative effect right he had the opportunity to see and hear much more 1:23:32 than anyone at Bethesda would have heard and if the combination of all of those 1:23:38 elements uh together combined led him to believe that 1:23:44 something much more nefarious and serious was happening then that might have been just it well there's a lot 1:23:51 obviously there's a lot of people you know as uh Rick was talking about earlier you know that you could Google 1:23:58 you know when it comes to the JFK assassination and their names keep popping up right regardless of what 1:24:06 position they had at the time you know but um when it comes to Captain Groves 1:24:12 he's more or less been disappeared here's a guy who had a 1:24:17 prominent position you know in the White House and a prominent 1:24:22 position um uh for those for those five hours in the White House and after that 1:24:29 basically coordinating everybody else in terms of movement of the body and this and that and so forth and yet you it's 1:24:37 hard to find anything about Captain Groves you know do do you recall uh I 1:24:45 assume you do you indicated that you got somewhat of a canned response when you 1:24:51 reach uh or a caned response when you reached out to uh some of his various 1:24:57 colleagues on the guard do you recall the names of the individuals that you spoke to uh well one of them was one 1:25:05 that was just mentioned by Rick um I could probably look it up but uh uh he 1:25:10 was he was one of the individuals that went out to meet the body uh at the at the plane and then was 1:25:18 more or less uh told to to move away that the secret service was going to take it um he but again the the the when 1:25:27 you when you question him you know about about the death of Captain Groves it 1:25:33 comes up oh he died you know at dinner with his wife having a heart attack and 1:25:38 falling into his plate of food in front of his wife and his daughter and it's always the same thing it's it's almost 1:25:46 it's almost verbatim What Rick was reading earlier you know that uh um uh 1:25:52 that event and it and it appears that that event is what is ingrained in all 1:25:57 of their minds including their wives well you know you know what I 1:26:03 remember from I think you told me this uh is when you interviewed Bobby Hayden 1:26:09 uh or maybe it was David uh Smallwood that asked him the question do you think Captain Groves was 1:26:16 poisoned and Hayden's response I thought was kind of interesting he could have said 1:26:22 well the official you know thing that we were told is that he died of a heart 1:26:28 attack or he could have said well you know we knew the man he was in terrific 1:26:33 shape it made no sense uh so it could have very you know well been a 1:26:39 suspicious death but Hayden's answer was no comment no comment yeah which 1:26:46 leads me to believe that perhaps these men knew more than they would ever tell us but were you know because of the 1:26:53 military secrecy you know thing that they just lived with and even took to their graves most of these men they 1:27:00 would never even with their own wives or family you know discuss these kind of matters you know but uh you know getting 1:27:06 back to Michael Groves if he was uh like you at least his father thought that he 1:27:13 was actually at the White House during that e afternoon and evening you know in 1:27:19 a position to hear information or whatever one would think that officially there would be a record if him being 1:27:26 there you know uh but again where do you find these records if they even exist 1:27:33 right so uh but but but uh you know I put a lot of stock in the fact that reent Tesh 1:27:40 uh you know knew that he was taking orders from a a young Army captain and 1:27:46 and who died I uh within a week later I mean how many how many army captains fit 1:27:52 that bill you know what I mean so uh I find that a little hard to to to 1:27:59 ignore that's why it's a mystery yep that's why it's a 1:28:05 mystery uh we we've I've really enjoyed this we're coming along here at about an hour and 20 minutes and it's been a an 1:28:13 action-packed hour and 20 minutes David what a story you've told uh I can't wait 1:28:20 to get it out and uh and get it circulated and of course the conversation's always more Rich when uh 1:28:27 Rick is is in it as as is as you can hear by some of the questions that he 1:28:34 asked we we'd love to uh keep you uh on the Rolodex so to speak uh David I hope 1:28:41 that you'll uh come back and visit us again I hope actually what you do is you go out and find Mary and uh and then 1:28:49 you're back on the show to be to be kept on your role at de and I appreciate the fact that you're giving you know this 1:28:56 story a platform you know I want to thank both Rick rouso and you for doing 1:29:01 that um uh I hope uh this I hope this develops some legs and I hope that some 1:29:06 people are out there that have an opportunity to maybe fill in some of the missing pieces that would be very nice 1:29:13 yes that's wonderful getting the story out there perhaps will end up being a 1:29:18 catalyst uh for you know ju just to give one last example um because David Lytton 1:29:25 wrote a book best evidence and and rentes in January of 1:29:30 1981 happened to be at work reading his weekly copy of Time magazine that had a 1:29:35 review of the book talking about the mystery of the two caskets and and lifting um you know feeling it was 1:29:42 suspicious and something nefarious was going on uh after reading that rentes 1:29:48 took uh offense to it because as far as he was concerned this was an operation that they knew ahead of time was going 1:29:55 to happen there was nothing nefarious about it it was in his mind standard operating procedure you know to have 1:30:02 diversion as part of a security measure and so forth and so on but but that's what brought rentes into the public 1:30:09 domain talking to a newspaper uh uh reporter in his hometown and then from 1:30:14 there you know uh his story came out but we we never would have even heard or knew about rebent Tesh if it for for 1:30:22 that so who knows what might come out of the woodwork now that Jeff has done this episode and and uh and and perhaps there 1:30:30 is some Serendipity to all of this no doubt just like just like there 1:30:36 was happen stance David with uh you ending up right next door to the Groves 1:30:41 correct and then in the and then in the postal line right next to David Smallwood sometimes that's justs just to 1:30:48 to just to I want to make sure that everybody here has no no suicidal 1:30:53 [Music] ideations it's almost like when I 1:30:58 watched an interview with Tucker and that guy Andrew Tate he kept inter he kept uh he kept putting in I I'm not 1:31:06 considering suicide I just want everybody to know I'm not considering suicide because there's so many people 1:31:13 in this end of the business that end up dying by Suicide I yeah we don't want to 1:31:20 we don't want to be the know I know Jeff and I plan to see a cardiologist sometime next week you know 1:31:27 I I gotta tell you I eat a lot of I eat a lot of fatty foods who knows 1:31:32 right well it this has been a absolute pleasure David you're uh spectacular 1:31:38 Storyteller yourself and obviously you had a a meticulous approach to this and 1:31:44 your comments were measured and I know the audience is going to love this and it's really actually a part of the story 1:31:51 that uh you know I think Rick and I talk about it a lot I have something like 250 1:31:56 or 300 books there's thousands of videos out there and you just can't you can't find this particular story and it's so 1:32:03 close to the epicenter of what happened so we're just really glad that you're that you pursued it to begin with and 1:32:10 and that you're uh telling your story today on on JFK the enduring secret YouTube thank thank you very much you're 1:32:17 welcome thanks for listening to this episode of Mysteries of the enduring 1:32:23 secret and please don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel JFK the 1:32:28 enduring secret and remember you can find our award-winning podcast JFK the 1:32:35 enduring secret on all of the popular podcast 1:32:42 Outlets

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Herold transcript- "This is probably one of the more popular ones, viral ones going around out there generally. This guy Gary Underhill, who formerly was a CIA asset, said that he had friends in the CIA who admitted to killing jfk. And then later on Underhill was found dead. He was shot in the left side of his head, behind his left ear. The gun was on underneath him, on his left side, kind of indicating he used his left hand obviously, but he was right handed. And so that was, you know, just doesn't add up. But then in that same document later on, it's talking about this other guy, what's his name, Cummings. Okay, this guy was a, the, he was the one who was an arms dealer for the CIA. It was a CIA operation. He was like the face of it. 20:46 And they were selling arms to resistance elements behind the Iron Curtain. It was a CIA owned company. It's insane. And then it talks about these guns like they were, while he was selling them. They were all the property of the CIA and their cost was all returned to the agency after they were sold. The CIA made a sizable profit on these transactions. So the CIA was profiting off of selling arms to resistance behind the Iron Curtain, basically in Russia, which is exactly what they're doing in Ukraine. Except it's not even like they're not even hiding it. We're just sending them shipments of arms and sending them money directly. Congress is doing it. The CIA doesn't even have to do it covertly. They still probably are for sure. But they're also doing it very publicly because it's the war effort we need to behind. 21:32 We got another one here. There's a rumor again, one of those cables, they had a NASA come in and be like, yeah, I heard this story. There was a authentic document about the assassination in Dallas which they say was swiped from the Warren Commission and which is certainly prejudicial for President Johnson. Meaning if this is true, somebody got their hands on an official Warren Commission document that did it kind of implicated essentially President Johnson and they were shopping it around. So that was notable. A couple more here. A former Swedish citizen allegedly told his drunk girlfriend about 10 days before the assassination that Kennedy was about to be assassinated. He's like, you just wait. He predicted that within two weeks President Kennedy would be assassinated while on a trip among his own people. That's kind of interesting. We have this where. 22:26 What is this one? Oh, the CIA ran like was stealing documents from embassies. JFK and Robert Kennedy both knew about the operation to do it and they didn't want the FBI to know. So the CIA did it, but they didn't want the FBI to know. And this is probably the biggie here. Again, in the documents from the 50s and 60s, they're talking about overthrowing Castro in Cuba. And the CIA in these documents, something that was previously classified are saying they had discussions with the appropriate AFL CIO officials have been conducted. In the report of developments. They talk about inducing the failure of crops. So just think of what that means. Like they'll. They will cause devastation in order to overthrow a government. And then the mention of the AFL CIO reminds me of this article. 23:19 I didn't have it pulled up, so give me a second to get there. Okay, right here. If you guys remember back the secret history of the shadow campaign that saved the election, there's multiple mentions of the AFL CIO in here. They are the ones who created a pact on election day. You know, to all the groups around the country. They essentially overthrew Trump. They were part of the group that overthrew Trump stole the election in 2020. And we have confirmation they're a CIA outlet. They work with the CIA to do this all over the world. So I thought that was interesting. But that's all I'm going to go through for now of the CIA files or the JFK files, whatever, same thing. If I find more later this week throughout the week, we'll. We'll cover it. But I think you guys get the point. 24:11 No smoking gun. Glad it came out. I'm sure there's more coming. I think they said 80,000 documents. We've only got like 62,000 so far. We will see what happens. Next up, we got this story kind of having to do with the JFK files. There's police and SWAT respond to an armed gunman at CIA headquarters hours after the JFK file So I don't know, somebody real mad about these files coming out. DOGE"