Altered Zapruder

A Closer Look at the Zapruder Film: The Case for Alteration" - by Dr. David Mantik Timestamped Bullet Point Summary of Dr. David Mantik's Presentation on Zapruder Film Alteration Evidence • Introduction and Background [0:00] Dr. David Mantik acknowledges Doug Horne's commitment to this research and introduces the case for Zapruder film alteration, noting that Abraham Zapruder was a wealthy dress maker from Dallas whose ancestors came from Ukraine. • The Missing Limousine Stop [1:06] The film does not show the limousine stopping, but multiple witnesses including Walter Cronkite and Bob Clark reported that "the car stopped momentarily" and "came to an immediate stop" during the assassination. • Twelve Unanswered Questions for Film Authenticity [3:42] Mantik presents twelve difficult questions that supporters of film authenticity have never adequately answered, beginning with what happened to the limousine stop witnessed by 72 people according to Vince Palamara's research. • Missing Multiple Head Shots [4:09] The film suggests only one head shot, but a master list of 202 witnesses indicated JFK was shot from the right front, and Clint Hill reported a head shot after frame 313 had already occurred. • Missing Turn onto Elm Street [4:44] Zapruder stated he started filming when the limousine rounded the corner onto Elm Street and had plenty of time, but the extant film is only 6 feet long whereas the physical film should be about 25 feet. • Warren Commission Data Contradicts Film [5:17] Warren Commission drawings and data tables show the third shot occurring opposite the stairs to the grassy knoll, not at frame 313 as shown in the film. • Secret Service Reconstruction Discrepancies [5:45] Early Secret Service reconstructions show the final shot occurring well past frame 313, contradicting the film's timeline. • No Contemporary Reports of Head Snap [6:07] No promptly debriefed witnesses, including Zapruder's partner Irwin Schwartz, reported seeing a head snap in the film that weekend. • Early Viewers Saw Forward Head Movement [6:20] Both Dan Rather and Deke DeLoach saw JFK's head go forward in copies of the film that weekend, as did Ike Altgens who saw it in real time, but no one has reported forward head movement since 1963. • Stemmons Freeway Sign Anomaly [6:42] John Costella demonstrated that Zapruder's lens routinely stretched all images outward (pincushion effect), but the Stemmons sign alone escapes these optical laws, suggesting it was inserted after development. • Compartmentalized NPIC Events [7:20] The film was diverted from Life's Chicago office to NPIC in Washington DC on Saturday night, then to Rochester for most of Sunday, returning to NPIC Sunday night before copies went to Life for the November 29th issue. • John Hicks' Overreaction [7:57] NPIC director John Hicks overreacted in 1975 when he saw Dino Brugioni's briefing boards from Saturday night during the Rockefeller Commission investigation. • Hollywood Experts Identify Fake Black Patch [8:18] 72 of 75 Hollywood film experts agreed that the black patch on JFK's head was fake, and it closely matches the white patch on lateral X-ray films. • Sydney Wilkinson's High-Resolution Analysis [8:52] In 2008, Sydney Wilkinson purchased a third-generation forensic copy and created 6K digital files with 14.7 megabytes per frame, nearly 12 times more information than HD TV. • Logarithmic vs. Linear Color Space [9:45] Wilkinson scanned in logarithmic space retaining all available information, unlike home HD TVs which use linear color space with adjusted contrast and color balance. • Density Analysis of Black Patch [10:31] NASA scientist scans across JFK's black patch compared to John Connally's head on the same frame show JFK's head is densely black while Connally's appears natural under identical lighting conditions. • Paul Routan's Professional Assessment [12:37] Film restoration expert Paul Routan, with credentials dating to the 1950s, identified the black patch as fake, stating it "doesn't look real" and "moves differently than his head does." • Aerial Optical Printer Technique [18:18] Routan explains the alteration was accomplished using an aerial optical printer, creating a patch overlay that could be completed overnight using technology available in 1963. • Color Separation Analysis [19:25] Before the head shot (frames 308-310), the back of JFK's head shows natural color separation of red, green, and blue components, but after frame 317, it becomes uniformly black without natural color variation. • Dino Brugioni's Testimony [26:45] CIA photo analyst Dino Brugioni, who saw the film Saturday night at NPIC, remembered a much larger head explosion with white material and mist extending about a foot and a half above JFK's head. • Missing Frames and Altered Explosion [29:10] The existing film shows the head explosion in only one frame with graphic violence, but Brugioni remembered it lasting longer with a white mist, and he definitively states frames are missing from the film. • Secret Service Agents Confirm Alteration [39:15] Two Secret Service agents agreed with Brugioni that they saw a more graphic version during training, with Bill Carter reporting the "gruesome version" had been cut out and Marty Venker describing brain matter spraying over Jackie. • Authentic Occipital Wound Evidence [40:01] Doug Mizzer's analysis shows Hawkeye Works in Rochester forgot to cover up an authentic occipital wound in some frames, revealing the original wound location in the back of the head. • First Generation Images at Sixth Floor Museum [40:47] Mantik and Sydney Wilkinson viewed extremely high-resolution first generation images at the Sixth Floor Museum in 2009, seeing a trapezoidal black patch with sharp edges, but later visitors saw different, lower-quality images. • Film Alteration Process Explained [42:31] The alteration process involved loading the original film in a projector, bouncing it off a mirror, passing it through a clear cell where alterations could be added, then photographing it with an aerial optical printer. • Chain of Custody and Technical Issues [43:28] The film went from 8mm at NPIC Saturday night to 16mm when McMahon and Hunter saw it Sunday night, accomplished through the Bell and Howell Model 414 double-8 system that exposed both sides of the film. • Zavada Report Contradictions [47:44] Film analyst Rollie Zavada's report contains internal contradictions about whether copies could be distinguished from originals, and he later reversed his opinion about film splitting, contradicting eyewitness testimony from Kodak officials. ____________________________ Original Source Attribution: 'A Closer Look at the Zapruder Film: The Case for Alteration' | Dr. David Mantik/The Future of Freedom Foundation | Dec 6, 2024 | https://youtu.be/Ns4nil-UP1w?si=U4wILGEZcAQ8w6n7 This presentation was delivered in November 2024 at the Cyril Wecht Institute of Forensic Science and Law’s 22nd annual symposium, The JFK Assassination at 60: New Frontiers in Scientific, Medical, Legal and Historical Research, at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh. You can download David Mantik's PowerPoint presentation via the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/00l21q6494axtf5q9gnvi/A-Closer-Look-at-the-Zapruder-Film.pptx David Mantik is a board-certified radiation oncologist, who (while still young) served on the tenure-track physics faculty at the University of Michigan. He also directed the residency training program at Loma Linda University, where he used protons, electrons, and X-rays to treat cancer. He received his Ph.D. in physics from the University of Wisconsin, his MD from the University of Michigan, completed a post-doctoral fellowship at Stanford University and held a Junior Faculty Clinical Fellowship at the University of Southern California. He has visited the JFK artifacts at the National Archives on nine separate days. While there he made hundreds of measurements on the extant JFK autopsy X-rays. His e-book is JFK’s Head Wounds. ___________________________ *** COPYRIGHT DISCLAIMER: This video and channel content are for educational purposes and use copyrighted material (clips) under the Fair Use Doctrine (Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107). This channel IS NOT MONETIZED, and all content is used for commentary, criticism, news reporting, or educational purposes, and falls within the guidelines of fair use. No copyright infringement is intended. All rights to the original content belong to the respective copyright holders. If you wish to have your content removed, please email us through your channel's email address, or contact me directly at [email protected]. ***

Horne take on Z alterations 10y ago (or more?) with Len Osanic, cut by MrChrillemannen /YT #Zapruder Hoax

https://johncostella.com/jfk/intro/sign/

Gil Jesus grab from the Zapruder Film Mystery: https://rumble.com/v6qmvy8-the-zapruder-film-mystery-doug-horne.html https://rumble.com/v6rae5y-vince-palamara-zapruder-film-documentary.html

Javitch's work is on substack at zapruderfilm.com The question is if the film was edited or completely made up, as Dr. Costella argues. Horne has responded to Costella re: it was fabricated whole cloth: "HORNE REBUTS COSTELLA---WITH VIGOR" https://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/4078.html It sounds like Javitch mixes up the Costella and alterationist theories in the middle but I think he was explaining the alterationists'. z212 is the flag on the front of the limo, you can verify that here in the frames: https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/ Brain switch pre-autopsy: rumble.com/user/johncleer?q=brain Not necessarily accurate that Horne and the others really think Zapruder an honest guy. I think they have to take that position like Mike Lindell has to pretend his judges aren't corrupt. Who knows what he/they really think. I also think Zapruder had foreknowledge.

The film these 2 are making was been in the works for a long time but supposedly it's still OTW and everyone is waiting or gave up on it. Search them from user/johncleer for more. This is the one thing Horne didn't talk about in the Crudele interview. There's obviously pressure to NOT talk about the fake Z film and Horne & Crudele must've had an agreement to save it for another day. I don't exactly know what the dynamics are but I speculate that some of it is researchers who have put their life into the Z Film would be turned off, and I'm sure there are also plants in the movement who want us to keep chasing the false trail. This was the feature presentation at the 2018 CAPA Conference: https://rumble.com/v6v1fj3-2018-capa-1-1-dr-donald-w-miller-last-living-doc-to-have-known-drs.-burkley.html https://rumble.com/v6v1fkz-2018-capa-1-2-bethesdanih-autopsy-doctor-jim-jenkins-and-co-author.html https://rumble.com/v6tzzzr-parkland-drs.-klein-lowe-and-curtis-on-what-they-saw-and-experienced-dr-agu.html https://rumble.com/v6v1fx7-2018-capa-2-2-if-a-magic-bullet-schnapf-and-doj-atty-john-orr-z210225-3d-mo.html Pretty terrible picture and sound quality in this. Schnapf the organizer should've put more effort into that but it was probably a lot of work already and I'm grateful he did it. Fake Zapruder playlists: https://rumble.com/playlists/WzsyV12pq8w https://rumble.com/playlists/Ueqa5-5PnXE https://rumble.com/playlists/dhAEZNGOlqA https://rumble.com/playlists/OibRrluZah0

Keven Hofeling Aug 18, 2024: "Here’s a timestamped summary of the content with key points from Doug Horne’s presentation on the possible alteration of the Zapruder film: (00:00–00:39) Doug Horne’s Background: Doug Horne worked as a senior analyst at the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) from 1995 to 1998, later publishing a five-volume book on the JFK assassination and related topics in 2009. (01:20–01:56) Claim of Alteration: Horne argues that the Zapruder film is not the original footage but an altered version. One key alteration is the blacking out of the exit wound on the right rear of JFK’s head. (01:56–02:32) Discrepancy in Head Wounds: The film shows a large head wound on the top and right side of JFK’s head, which doesn’t align with eyewitness descriptions from Parkland and Bethesda hospitals, suggesting the wound in the film may be a fabricated addition. (03:09–03:45) Missing Film Footage: Both Abraham Zapruder and his secretary Marilyn Sitzman claimed they began filming before the car turned from Houston to Elm Street, but this turn is absent in the film. Eyewitnesses also describe exit debris flying to the left rear, which is not visible in the film. (05:46–07:33) Altered Motion in the Film: The Zapruder film depicts a violent head snap to the rear that wasn’t described by eyewitnesses. Horne suggests that frames showing exit debris might have been removed, causing the body motion to appear unnaturally fast. (07:33–11:10) Reports of the Limousine Stopping: Several reliable witnesses, such as Bill Newman, Jean Hill, and Hugh Betner, reported the limousine stopping briefly during the shooting. This contradicts the Zapruder film, where the car does not fully stop, only slowing down. (08:10–09:56) Eyewitness Testimonies and Film Discrepancies: Horne highlights testimony from witnesses like Bill Newman, Jean Hill, and Hugh Betner, who all reported the car stopping or swerving, which is not reflected in the Zapruder film. (11:10–11:47) Inconsistencies with Other Films: In films from other angles (like the Nix and Muchmore films), brake lights are visible on the car, supporting the claim that the car stopped, in contrast to the Zapruder film, where the car only slows down. (11:47) Conclusion: Altered Film: Horne concludes that the Zapruder film has likely been altered for several reasons, including missing frames, inconsistencies with witness accounts, and visual discrepancies that suggest tampering. ___________ Excerpt from Sep 18, 2014 'Altered History: Exposing Deceit and Deception in the JFK Assassination Medical Evidence' "

Coffee with Scott Adams #JFK Asssassination

#JFK Assassination

found on e2 films, who also marked the Timestamps. "While serving as chief analyst of military records at the Assassination Records Review Board in 1997, Douglas Horne discovered that the Zapruder Film was examined by the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center two days after the assassination of President Kennedy. In this film, Horne interviews legendary NPIC photo interpreter Dino Brugioni, who speaks for the first time about another NPIC examination of the film the day after the assassination. Brugioni didn't know about the second examination and believes the Zapruder Film in the archives today is not the film he saw the day after the assassination. Drawing on Volume 4 of his book "Inside the ARRB", Doug Horne introduces the subject and presents his conclusions" 00:25 the Zap Film Mystery 01:43 Problem 1 the missing car stop 02:31 Problem 2 the mmissing turn onto Elm St 02:43 Problem 3 Evidence of Alteration 05:37 Custody of the Film 16:55 Chain of custody on the Weekend of the Assassination 38:21 What time did the Secret Service leave? 39:23 The Brugioni Briefing Boards 43:20 Event Number Two 54:25 Return of the Briefing Board Auto Transcript: e 0:30 well I think everyone knows that the zuda film is the is the preeminent assassination record that we have today 0:37 uh there were several home movies taken that day but the best one by far uh in 0:43 terms of uh magnification and field of view and quality was the home movie made 0:51 by Abraham zuder now he was a dress maker he worked uh in the building across the street from The Book 0:57 Depository he didn't even bring his camera to work that day his secretary sent him home go home and get your 1:02 camera he went home and got his camera he filmed the motorcade coming down Elm 1:07 Street and captured the assassination for several decades uh after the 1:12 assassination uh everyone presumed naturally I think that the zuder film 1:18 was authentic and that it that it was the closest thing to ground truth that we had about the Kennedy assassination 1:24 beginning in the late 1980s and on into the 1990s different researchers began to have doubts about whether the zuder film 1:33 was an unaltered authentic film or whether it's an altered record of what 1:38 happened has the zuder film been altered in some way the key problems were number 1:45 one was there a car stop many many eyewitnesses approximately 50 people in 1:50 D Plaza uh insist that the president's limousine came to a complete stop during 1:57 the assassination a brief stop for perhaps one and a half or two seconds but that the car did come to a 2:03 stop we don't see anything like that on this film and yet some of the most persuasive witnesses to the car stop 2:10 were the people closest to the limousine people standing on either side of it on Elm Street and many of the motorcycle 2:17 policemen who were either escorts for the limousine or escorts for cars immediately behind it so uh that's the 2:24 first problem with the zuder film is why doesn't it show the car stop that over 50 Witnesses recall another problem is 2:31 that zuder and his secretary both recall that zuder started shooting the movie when the car was on Houston Street and 2:37 filmed it turning onto Elm Street that is not seen in the film today recently some researchers have 2:45 began to study the image content in the frames of the film one researcher in particular in California Sydney 2:51 Wilkinson purchased a dupe negative a duplicate 35mm negative of the zuder 2:56 film from the National Archives she and her part Partners in Hollywood have uh 3:03 created high resolution digital scans of each frame of the zudo foam they believe 3:08 they see irrefutable evidence of alteration 3:13 of image content specifically they believe they see blacking out of the 3:19 back of the head in the zuder film which is significant because the back of the head is where all of the medical staff 3:25 at Parkland Hospital in Dallas saw a wound on President Kennedy when he was treated on November 22nd the medical 3:31 staff at Parkland Hospital in Dallas Texas who attempted to save President Kennedy's life only saw two wounds on 3:38 his body uh they saw an entrance wound in his throat directly below the Adams 3:43 apple and they all saw a rather large uh gaping avulsed blown out exit wound in 3:52 the right rear of his head in the right rear of his head not the top of his head not the side of his head they saw a 3:58 wound in the right rear of his head that wound that they saw was devoid of bone and scalp brain tissue was exposed 4:06 there's a pror film does not show such a wound uh the new highdefinition scans 4:13 created in Hollywood from the duplicate negative from the archives show many frames where the back 4:19 of the head is blacked out rather crudely blacked out as if someone had wanted to 4:26 obscure the wound seen at Parkland Hospital and yet we we see other head wounds on the zapa film that no one saw 4:32 at Parkland Hospital we see the top of the head apparently damaged the right side of the head apparently damaged in 4:38 the zuder film and yet no one at Parkland Hospital and I mean no one saw 4:43 such damage on President Kennedy and he was treated for 40 minutes uh so these medical experts who 4:50 were well trained and who knew how to identify wounds and knew how to describe their 4:55 location had plenty of time to observe the wounds on his body and no one at Parkland saw the wounds on President 5:02 Kennedy's head that are portrayed in the zuder film so we have a car stop that's not shown in the zuder foil we have head 5:09 wounds that no one saw at Parkland Hospital on the zuder foil and we do not 5:15 have on the zud film we do not see the wound that they did see at Parkland Hospital instead we see a blacked out 5:21 portion back here so there are many reasons today to focus on the Z film and 5:28 uh there's a lot of res going on right now and it's uh I'll just say it's ongoing stay 5:35 tuned the zuder film has had a very interesting Journey Abraham's auder shot 5:41 his own movie on November 22nd it was developed at the Kodak plan in Dallas Texas after it was developed he took it 5:48 to another lab they ran off three copies on a contact 5:54 printer he took the three copies back to the Kodak lab they were also developed 5:59 at the same Kodak lab in Dallas so on the day of the assassination we had four versions of the zuder film we had the 6:06 camera original and we had three uh copies made in a contact 6:11 printer they were all slit to 8 millimeters that day so zuder had a double8 mimet film double8 film as 6:19 inserted in the camera and as shot in the camera with 16 mimers wide and 6:25 consisted of opposing image strips going in opposite directions we had an a side and a bside after developing the normal 6:33 procedure at the developing plant was to Slit the film or split the film straight 6:38 down the middle and then splice those two sections together so that instead of having a 16 mm film 25 ft long you would 6:47 have an 8 mm film 50 ft long and that's what was done uh after 6:52 the original and the three copies were developed the day of the assassination all of them were split to 8 6:58 mm zuder took his original film home that night showed it to his wife and his 7:07 daughter he then showed the original film the next morning to a representative from Life Magazine Mr 7:13 Stalley and to the Secret Service in his office at the delex building on Saturday November 7:21 23rd Life Magazine implemented the first of two sales contracts with Mr zuder the 7:27 first contract on Saturday was for $50,000 and it allowed them to have uh 7:34 worldwide print wrs now this was printing rights for still images only from his Motion Picture Life Magazine 7:42 was to be allowed to borrow the original film for one week for the making of these highquality still images then 7:49 after one week they were to give it back to Mr zuder and he in return was to give them one of the three copies on Saturday 7:56 afternoon the original film that Mr zuder had sold to 8:02 life was put on an airplane in Dallas and sent to Chicago by Life Magazine Mr staly did not go with it he put the film 8:08 on an airplane until recently everyone thought the story went like this that Life Magazine had the original film in 8:16 Chicago all weekend the weekend the of the assassination and that they were busy 8:22 taking stills from that image for publication in their future magazines we 8:27 now believe that's not the case at all all and uh I'm prepared to talk about that in some 8:34 detail something happened that weekend to cause Life Magazine to want to 8:39 repurchase the film in its entirety so and and you got to 8:45 understand this was not to Life's Financial benefit this was to Mr zapruder's benefit life reapo muched Mr 8:52 zuder on Sunday November 24th the day before President Kennedy's funeral and 8:57 they said we'd like to renegotiate our sale contract with you we would like to buy the original 9:04 film and all the copies and maintain possession of them 9:10 and have not only worldwide print rights but worldwide Motion Picture rights we want all the films and we want all the 9:16 rights to the films including Motion Picture rights so of course Mr zuder said sure I'll uh I'll do another 9:24 contract with you so the sale contract was Rewritten on Monday November 2th the 9:29 day of President Kennedy's funeral and that contract instead of for $50,000 the 9:35 new sale price was $150,000 spaced out over a period of six 9:41 years Mr zuder was to get $25,000 a year and life was to get the original 9:48 film and all the copies and the motion picture rights now what's interesting is is that after spending an extra 9:57 $100,000 to obtain Motion Picture writes to the film Life magazine in 12 years 10:03 never once never once did they exhibit the film as a 10:09 motion picture or license it for others to exhibit it as a motion picture so they paid extra money to do this and 10:15 then never used it as a motion picture in my opinion the real reason that Life Magazine repurchased the zuder film was 10:23 to suppress that film as a motion picture we all know today that 10:30 yes the film seems to contain evidence that President Kennedy was shot from the front because his body is propelled 10:37 rather rapidly to the left and to the rear I also believe the film was altered the weakend of the 10:42 assassination in 1963 before the era of digital technology before computer 10:49 generated imagery there were limits to what one could do to alter a film one could remove let's say frames of debris 10:57 exiting the president's head and traveling toward the left rear one might be able to remove a car stop but there 11:04 were things in 1963 that one could not do with a film you can't change the motion of someone's body in the car 11:11 there was no CGI in those days so I believe that the film was crudely altered the weekend of the 11:19 assassination to black out the location of the true exit 11:24 wound to paint false wounds on the president's head that would appear to be 11:30 consistent with a shot from behind and that uh although these 11:36 alterations were done they weren't done very well I don't think they would have stood up to the scrutiny of a let's say 11:42 a television studio if you licensed the zuder film in 1963 to someone who wanted to show it as 11:48 a motion picture you would have to loan them the film they would have it in a tesin machine they'd be studying it 11:54 frame by frame and I think that some of the alterations done the some of the 12:00 crude alterations done to black out the true exit wound uh probably would have been 12:05 apparent to anyone borrowing and studying the film on a frame by frame basis so so I think that's why 12:13 life never exhibited it as a motion picture after paying for the right to do 12:18 so I also think that the motion of the body the head stamp uh back into to the 12:23 left that we've all become so familiar with is evidence of shot shots from the 12:30 front it's just evidence that the alterationist couldn't remove from the film there's only so much you can do to alter a film in 12:37 1963 that's evidence of shots from the front that you couldn't remove and because you couldn't remove that life uh 12:44 chose to suppress the film now we know that CD Jackson the publisher of Life magazine had a long career in and out of 12:52 intelligence uh he was in and out of intelligence with the US government then back into the private sector back with 12:58 the government back with the private sector started his he started his career in London in World War II working for 13:03 the OSS in propaganda Allied propaganda he also rejoined the government in the 13:09 50s and worked for President Eisenhower in a propaganda role uh so I think uh Mr 13:16 Jackson's friends in government encouraged him in the magazine to repurchase the film put it under wraps 13:23 release still frames from time to time as desired but don't show that film was 13:29 em motion picture I don't think they wanted the crude alterations to the uh 13:34 wound imagery to be detected and I also think they were they were afraid that people might focus on the the motion of 13:41 the body back into to the left so the film wasn't exhibited as a motion picture for 12 years only when a bootleg 13:48 copy of the zuder film was aired on National Television in 1975 by Robert 13:53 groden in ABC television only then did Life magazine suddenly lose interest in 13:59 the zuder film uh that very same year Life 14:05 Magazine sold the film and all of its film elements that it had back to the 14:11 zapa family for $1 for $1 after paying 14:17 $150,000 for the film they sold it back to the family for $1 in 1975 after the bootleg copy of the film 14:25 had become widely seen now there's a family placed the film in the physical custody of the 14:33 national archives in 1978 for what was called courtesy storage they knew that 14:39 the archives could store the film uh at a low temperature 25 degrees Fahrenheit 14:44 and you know under good security conditions and that was in their best interest so they placed it in the 14:50 archives for Courtesy storage in 1992 the US Congress passed the JFK records act that's the ACT which 14:59 also created the review board uh the suud family was aware that the JFK records Act was going to allow 15:06 the government to declare certain items to be 15:12 assassination records and that the government might then take these records 15:18 uh assume ownership and control of them permanent control so the Suter family 15:25 uh in approximately 1993 attempted to remove their film from 15:31 courtesy storage in the archives the archives said we're sorry not so fast the status of your film is uncertain it 15:38 may be declared an assassination record by the review board and so we are not going to give it to you so the 15:45 negotiations proceeded from there as it turns out the the arrb did hold hearings 15:51 on the zaper film recognizing the seminal importance of the film uh it was 15:56 declared an assassination record and effective in uh August of 1998 the 16:03 US government became the owner of the zuder film in exchange for that the zuder family was very fairly compensated 16:11 uh more than fairly compensated the Congress voted to give them $16 million 16:16 as just compensation for the taking of their film so they made a windfall profit and the the what I call the Exton 16:25 film the existing film I don't call it the original because I I don't think it's the original film The Exton film 16:31 resides in the archives today under controlled conditions 25° Fahrenheit storage and the archives has made a 16:39 forensic copy a 35mm copy on an optical printer that 16:45 researchers May access and in fact it's this forensic copy that uh Sydney 16:50 Wilkinson in California has purchased the weakend of the 16:56 assassination we now know the film had a very different chain of custody and very different history than we once thought I 17:03 was the point man for the zuda film on the assassination records review board staff I worked with film issues for 17:10 three years straight and we became aware I became aware in 17:16 1997 that uh the zuder film had actually been in the custody of 17:22 the CIA over the weekend following the assassination and uh 17:29 not necessarily in the hands of Life magazine in Chicago as we had been led to believe in 17:36 1997 uh I conducted uh interviews of Two Gentlemen who worked at the cia's npic 17:44 the npic was the national photographic interpretation Center in Washington DC 17:50 it was the cia's number one film lab most of what the lab did in those days 17:55 was aerial photography from the U spy plane or satellite photography but they 18:00 also did other types of Photography anything related to intelligence the review board staff located in 18:06 1997 two persons who worked with the zuder film at npic the weekend of 18:12 President Kennedy's assassination and the names of these two men were Homer McMahon the head of the 18:19 Color Lab at inpic and his young assistant at the time Ben Hunter we 18:24 conducted a total of six interviews three interviews of each men 18:29 and uh this is what we discovered about 2 days after the 18:34 assassination which would make it Sunday November 24th a secret service 18:41 Courier brought the zuder film to the npic in Washington now this is late 18:47 Sunday night these men were sure it was a couple of days later and they were sure it was before the funeral the funeral is 18:55 Monday November 25th so this had to be Sunday night 19:00 this aor film was brought to npic Sunday night by a secret service agent named Bill 19:06 Smith he told these men that it was the original film and that it had been 19:12 developed in Rochester New York at a code Nam facility named Hawkeye works 19:19 now Hawkeye Works was a sensitive code name used at the time 19:24 by the CIA for the Kodak companies number one 19:29 research and development lab so the Hawkeye Works lab R&D lab was 19:36 located at the Kodak main industrial site in Rochester New York it was a 19:41 civilian Kodak owned and operated research lab that dealt with all types of 19:47 film some of the film that the lab dealt with was the corona satellite film and the U2 film used by the U2 spy plane so 19:54 there's a problem here when we have a secret service Courier delivering is a Pruder film to the n npic in Washington 20:02 on Sunday night uh and telling them that it was the original film that it had been 20:09 developed at Hawkeye Works in Rochester and then presenting them not with an 8mm 20:14 film but with a 16 mm wide apparently unsit double8 20:21 film now the job of the npic was something that makes perfect sense their 20:27 job was to take the film delivered to them by the Secret Service and and make blowup images of 20:33 particular frames and to uh put the blowup prints Mount them on 20:39 briefing boards so that they could be presented to officials of the government so they could be studied it was a way to 20:44 study the evidence in a Motion Picture film in more detail to to blow up many 20:51 times the original size remember the original frames are only 8 mm wide so to to blow these up to 4x5 in prints Mount 20:58 the prints on briefing boards with some accompanying information and then 21:03 deliver your briefing boards to the customer so Homer McMahon and his 21:08 assistant bed Hunter were working that night with an unsit 16 mm wide double8 21:16 zuder film which still had opposing images uh opposing image strips images 21:21 going in opposite directions it had an aside and a B-side the the aside was a family movies taken by the zapa family 21:28 the bside is the assassination on Elm Street in Dallas uh these images were going in 21:35 opposite directions on the film the film was 16 millim wide as if it were a brand 21:40 new unsit film Homer McMahon uh remembers putting this film in his in 21:47 his enlarger his 10 x 20 x40 enlarger the world's best enlarger in existence 21:54 state-of-the-art equipment and making inter negatives of individual frames 21:59 that were 40 times the original size 40 times bigger than the 8mm film frame and then from those in negatives he made 22:06 Color Prints he and his assistant made three sets of prints they made 28 inner 22:14 negatives from those 28 inner negatives from the zuder film they made three prints each so the implication is that 22:21 they were probably going to have three briefing boards made they went home after they made the three sets of 20 22:29 prints and they know that other people in at npic actually pasted the prints 22:34 onto the briefing boards and made the briefing boards but we were able to interview these two men who did this work two days 22:42 after the assassination with his zuder film from the wrong location and in the 22:48 wrong format many years later in 2009 as I was uh finishing work 22:57 on my manuscripts for my book a researcher named Peter Janney contacted me now Peter Janney is the 23:03 author of a book Mary's Mosaic about President Kennedy and his the final mistress Mary pincho 23:09 Meyer but he took a diversion during the writing of his book to investigate the zuder film because he was curious about 23:15 various zuder film issues he called a man named Dino broni who used to be the 23:20 Chief Information officer at npic Dino Bron uh was the right-hand man of the 23:27 director he was the Chief Information officer he was the man who whose responsibility it was to assemble any 23:33 and all briefing boards that were ever made for government officials for any reason this would include YouTube 23:39 photography Corona satellite photography whatnot Peter jany's father had worked 23:45 for the CIA Peter jany's father had known Dino Bion back in the day back in the 1950s 23:51 and 60s so Peter Janney took a chance and just called Dino in the cold and said I'm Peter J Janny I'm Fred janney's 23:59 son uh can I talk to you about some of your work when you were with the agency and they clicked they hit it off 24:06 so what Peter Janney discovered uh during his extensive interviews of Dino 24:12 Bion in 2009 was that Dino Bron saw the true 24:18 original zuder film the true 8 millimeter film The One 24:24 developed in Dallas the day of the assassination the one that was slit down to 8 millimeters in width Dino dealt 24:30 with the original film one day before Homer McMahon was presented with a 24:37 reconstructed and altered film he was called in to work on the zuder film 24:42 Saturday night November 23rd so this told us that Dino was 24:48 involved with event number one with the film and Homer McMahon and his assistant Ben Hunter who the review board 24:54 interviewed in 1997 they were really involved with event number two so Dino with event number one had the true 25:00 original film I was the duty officer that 25:05 Saturday and and Sunday and I received the call it was in 25:11 the afternoon by from Mr lall to uh get a crew in better get a 25:17 crew in that the Secret Service was going to arrive sometime that evening 25:22 with something that required some work at the center so uh I called Bill Banfield head 25:30 of the lab and I called uh Ralph Pur a 25:35 photogrammetrist now Bill banfield's responsibility was not only the photo lab but also uh he had a the unit that 25:43 would make the briefing boards from the photography John mcon called Arthur lall 25:48 and told him the Secret Service needed some help and for us to uh Aid them in any way that we could about 10:00 they 25:57 arrived two men they they identified themselves as being from the Secret Service only Bill 26:03 Banfield Ralph Paris and I discussed things with the two Secret Service men while you worked at npic did you know a 26:10 gentleman named Ben Hunter yes was he there that night with you no are you 26:16 sure about that yes cuz Ben Hunter was uh in the it was 26:21 a photogrammetrist in in the photo photogrametry and I didn't need him I mean I I wouldn't I wouldn't have called 26:28 him in did you know a homer McMahon I knew him yes but not that night okay when we got 26:34 to the third floor uh the fellow opened the box and he showed 26:41 me I recognized it immediately it was 8 mm roll of film I took the film and uh 26:48 and I put a 6 power two magnifier on it and I could see uh the print it was fully 26:56 developed when you received when we when we received it okay I have here a uh a 27:02 roll of 8mm movie film uh which I'd like to show you and ask you if this is the type of product 27:09 you received on Saturday November 23rd 27:19 1963 yes I can see the individual frames in there and I can see the sprockets 27:25 this is this is what we had okay okay now the problem was that we didn't have a projector to 27:33 take 8 mm so Bill Banfield said uh uh I'll call 27:38 Fuller de Albert this was a store down in downtown Washington that uh had 27:44 photographic supplies a lot of Eastman Kodak photo supplies and so uh he said let me see 27:50 what I can do so he called a uh manager of the store and the manager said yes he 27:55 had a uh an 8mm projector ctor and so that he would meet Bill at the uh at the 28:02 store so Bill goes down and and uh comes back with the 8mm projector Can you 28:08 estimate this many years later about what time he might have returned with the projector I would say around midnight okay when bill bfield came back 28:16 with the projector we projected it on a screen not once but several times the 28:23 first time caught us all by surprise what we were seeing 28:29 and that was uh to see Kennedy's head portions of his skull fly into the 28:35 air that was a surprise to me that was a surprise to Bill that was a surprise to Ral pi and that was a surprise to the 28:41 Secret Service men it was a surprise to the secret servicemen does that mean that they had not viewed the film yet 28:47 yes that I took that impression that that was their first time that they saw it so then they they said let's run it 28:54 slower so they ran it slower and uh several times so that we 29:00 uh then I asked him I said now what do you want of us he said well we want prints from from this 29:08 film I said all right what suppose you move up and you indicate which frames you 29:17 want and we'll mark it when we ran it through we took a little piece of uh 29:23 tape let's say that you tell me you want this Frame I will go that's that's so 29:30 precious that I'm not going to touch that one but maybe 10 frames away I will I will put a mark on the but then I'll 29:37 know that I have to go back 10 frames I see see so you don't want to damage the 29:43 one that you want to enlarge the one that you want to enlarge in any shape fer way did anyone count frame numbers 29:50 from the beginning of the film to the end yes who did that Ral did it mostly I 29:56 see were they concerned with uh number of seconds between shots timing yes they 30:03 wanted us uh they wanted us to to time it and Ralph Pur said he didn't like 30:10 that idea if that's a bell and Halal camera he he knew immediately that it was spring wound and he knew that as it 30:18 was projected it would slow down in other words the timing at the beginning of the film might not be what you have 30:25 at the tail end of the film and I said told Ralph I said would you write that down and later I I included that in the 30:33 note that I sent to londel we had misgiving because we didn't know what he had the number of frames per second that 30:39 he had set his camera on or the tension that was on the on the on the on the 30:44 windup I understand do you recall a conclusion by the Secret Service or by 30:50 your npic team uh at the end of the night as to how many total shots have 30:55 been fired do you recall anyone concluding what the total was or or did you no no we we say 31:04 strictly no they they didn't ask and we didn't okay we didn't offer anything like that 31:10 okay Dino do you think you had an original home movie or a copy no doubt in my mind we had the original and why 31:17 do you say that because two reasons one the the the fact that the Secret 31:23 Service was bringing it in and the second thing is when I looked at it 31:28 it it was not processed in in ackal commercial fashion 31:36 it wasn't in a box little box or anything like like that it was very well controlled all the time that film was 31:42 controlled by the Secret Service all the time he was there I've never seen that film like the night that I looked at 31:50 it was the were the images sharp or a little bit fuzzy maybe no no they were sharp it was obvious they they were 31:57 concerned about our handling of the film when I told him I said we were going to use white gloves and I I told him what 32:04 what to do and what not to do when they were working with the film because I I didn't want anything to disturb the film 32:12 that they had given me I knew it was an important film now it was never referred to as a zap Rudder film or anything like 32:18 that it was just a to them it was a film but a precious film at that the other 32:23 thing that I was worried about is that sometimes when you when you run film through a projector little chips of film will 32:31 will uh will break off so but this was a brand new projector so we wouldn't have that kind of 32:37 problem and in order to make 4x5 in prints from selected individual frames 32:44 what what would the steps be for a photographer to do that well they take it into the photo lab now you got to 32:51 make a d DN you got to make make a duplicate egg and when you say duplicate egg do do 32:57 you mean as a motion picture or of individual frames no individual frames okay the national photographic 33:03 interpretation had the finest enlargement capabilities in the world would it have been normal procedure to 33:11 make blowups from a copy film or would you always have wanted to have the original was it important oh yes oh yes 33:21 I I would uh the further you get away from the original you you lose and especially in 33:27 color you lose it very very fast uh you get away from uh two or three 33:33 uh from the original and you've you've lost uh a good portion of the information that you need the idea was 33:40 to give the Secret Service the best quality we could give them on the uh on 33:47 the imagery that we were we were looking at do you recall any image bleed over no 33:53 between the sprocket holes no okay what two or three things did did they focus on the most what did they 33:59 want to see a product well the first thing that they uh they kept working 34:04 with is the sign post where they where the uh there a freeway sign on El the 34:11 freeway the freeway sign where the the car and the occupants disappear 34:20 and then as they come out of the out of the the stand that especially 34:28 we we moved it frame by frame so that we could get see what what 34:34 was happening to the president and then as we pulled it away we could see that he was he was grabbing his throat but I 34:41 mean they they made us stop it the minute the car appeared in the projector in in the 34:48 in the projecting room and then we made prints after that okay then the other 34:54 one of course was uh the uh the actual shooting of the president we made made 35:01 prints of that but uh and when you say that do you mean the head explosion the 35:08 well the head wound the head wound I think we made 35:14 two just at the beginning of the uh of the blast and then the the one that I 35:21 remember was that there was a a chunk of body uh of his head uh in 35:28 uh above his head and uh and then there was a uh there was a uh like a little 35:36 mist or Cloud around it the most startling thing 35:41 I learned about the missing briefing boards made from the true original film 35:47 is that Dino broni in the film that he studied on November 35:53 23rd saw a very different head explosion than we see today in in the film in the National 35:59 Archives Dino Bron uh as he as he explained to Peter 36:04 Janney and a in a in a personal interview in April of 36:10 2011 Dino Bion saw a a much larger head explosion that went 3 or 4 feet into the 36:17 air above President Kennedy's head he described the head explosion we see 36:22 today in frame 313 of the Exton film as being low in the image he said his 36:27 headed explosion was very high into the air and when Dino found out that the 36:32 present version of the zuder film only has one frame showing the head explosion 36:37 frame 313 he was astounded what I saw was more than that more this is frame 36:43 313 so you saw more pink Mist going up 36:49 straight up I remember the scatter was high yeah you know say uh 3 or 4 feet 36:55 from his head uh-huh up in the air yeah uh-huh this is the 37:01 only frame on the whole suud film that you get to see no there was more than 37:08 that more so you're saying there was more than one frame for sure how many with frames do you think there would be 37:14 I don't know but I all I know is that we were shocked when we when we saw it right right if you go down to the 37:21 archives you ask for the zudo film they claim that that's the true one 37:26 that's the true one right the one that the the frames that we just looked at no you're shaking your head it's not 37:34 the true one is it is that what you mean I say the one that I saw man his head 37:39 his it it was way high on on his off of his head yeah the debris the and I can't 37:47 imagine that there would only be one frame right what I saw was more than what what you had there we have this 37:56 remarkable man who still has a very sharp mind with impeccable 38:01 credentials who helped found the npic in the mid1 1950s the right-hand man of the 38:08 director insisting that the head explosion he saw on the zuder film was very different from the one we see 38:15 today which confirms my suspicions that the film we have today is an altered 38:20 film about what time of the morning did they leave I'd say around 3 3 3 a. 34 38:28 in that area when they had selected the prince that they wanted uh and uh and we told them that 38:35 we showed an an example of one of them I think that yeah here here's what what they're going to look like but it's 38:41 going to take us time to print the rest of them they were satisfied they took their 38:46 film and uh and uh and they left so is 38:52 it fair to say that when the Secret Service departed they took the film they took their own briefing board and they 38:57 took no no no no no no okay not their own briefing board no the two two copies 39:03 went to mcon mcon gave him would give him the briefing board I see I didn't understand that oh yeah I remember uh I 39:11 looked at the boards and I was thinking about what time do I get lundal to come down there 39:17 was Daylight by the time the boards were done now how many uh individual blowups 39:26 or prints do you would you estimate that you made that night of individual frames I'd say 12 to 15 12 to 15 the idea was 39:34 to take two briefing boards The Briefing boards were 20 by 22 and to hinge them in the center and 39:42 then the paste paste the prints down and give the uh frame number so how many total sets 39:50 of briefing boards did you make that night two two sets made one for Mr mcon 39:55 and one for the Secret Service okay and I prepared notes for both of 40:01 them for both were the notes identical yes okay because I wanted to make sure 40:07 that the Secret Service had the same notes that Mr mcon had right because Mr 40:12 mcon was a uh was a could be get pretty angry if if he knew anything was 40:17 different so I made sure the briefing boards were the same and the notes were the same and are you the person who 40:24 prepared the S prep the notes you're the sole person who prepared the notes that's right and I typed them myself 40:29 okay do you recall whether it was only one page or more than one page one page 40:34 one page one set of briefing boards made by you and your team were two panels 40:40 each 20 by 22 in and in uh in dimensions and size joined by a hinge in the middle 40:48 is that correct hinge in the middle and that hinge was for what purpose well it it it it was so that it open up you can 40:56 you could go from one one board to the other was the hinge used to facilitate 41:01 easier transportation of this yes too so it could be folded it was a tape just piece of tape it was a tape with that we 41:09 used uh whenever we made briefing boards like that would it be fair to say that each set of briefing boards had 12 to 15 41:17 photos mounted on it that's right okay equally distri more or less equally distributed between the two panels right 41:24 okay when was it completed in early morning morning uh which morning Sunday morning Sunday November 41:31 24th yeah uh when you say early morning do you mean Before Dawn or at dawn or no 41:37 around Dawn okay about what time did Mr lundle arrive I would say around 8:00 41:43 okay after that yeah around 8:00 I called him I called him I guess around 7 41:49 o'clock and he said he'd be down he'd come down and he came down and uh I went over the briefing 41:55 boards with him I showed him the notes I went over the notes with him and uh also 42:02 in the notes I had the the people that were there and uh incidentally the Secret 42:09 Service wanted the list of people that had seen the uh had been involved that night I gave them a list oh they want 42:16 did they want the name of everyone involved that's right and I gave them that and I also had that in the note 42:22 that I gave to Mr lall I see because when I when I saw the 42:27 how uh you know that this was a uh big event I wanted to make sure that if 42:34 there was a leak in some kind that everybody that was seen or involved in the printing and and their name would be 42:41 recorded that's common in intelligence uh organizations you could really get burned if information like this got 42:48 out did Mr lundle only brief director mcon or did he also brief the Secret 42:53 Service no he only briefed mcon okay all I gave him a note so that mcon could 43:00 give the board to the Secret Service and the note to go with them I see is it 43:06 fair to say you presume that director mcon gave the Secret Service their briefing board their briefing board 43:12 right and probably talked to them he probably met with the Secret Service I 43:18 understand did you know someone named uh Pierre Sans oh yes and what was his job 43:23 at inpic he was a deputy director of inpic was Pierre Sans uh at inpic the night that you were engaged in this 43:29 activity no if he was are you sure you would remember that oh sure okay do know 43:35 in the mid uh 1990s specifically in the Year 1997 the organization that I worked for 43:42 the JFK assassination records review board a temporary agency in Washington 43:49 DC uh by happen stance we became aware of two npic employees who were still 43:56 alive who had also made briefing Boards of the zuder film and had done so the 44:02 weekend of the assassination uh the names of those two gentlemen were Morgan Bennett Hunter 44:10 known as Ben Hunter and Homer a McMahon and Mr McMahon uh described 44:16 himself to us as the head of the Color Lab at inpic and the agency later verified that 44:22 he worked for inic from 1960 to 1970 uh and his job photo scientist 44:28 photo scientist okay all right both men were fairly consistent that they thought 44:35 that their activity making briefing boards from the zuder film took place about about two days after the 44:41 assassination and before the funeral that would Place their event as and they both recall that it 44:49 had it started late at night and went all night long so that if they are correct in their 44:54 Recollections that would have their event starting Sunday night and going into Monday 45:01 morning because they were both also quite certain that they did their 45:07 work before the funeral of President Kennedy which was on Monday November 25th is there any chance that you 45:13 finished your activity on Monday the day of the funeral instead of Sunday no okay 45:19 is it fair to say that you're quite certain that you went home on Sunday November 24th Sunday morning after you 45:24 finished making the briefing boards and after you turn the materials over to Mr lundle Right did he contact you uh later 45:32 that day and tell you how the briefing went the briefing of Mr mcon no 45:38 no no he was happy he he thought we did a good job he complimented me and he said you did a fine job and that was it 45:45 and so that's the last you saw of him that day yeah okay and then uh and and 45:50 there was no other activity there were no shipments of film or anything else uh at that particular time I mentioned just 45:57 a moment ago that uh the assassination records review board interviewed Ben Hunter and Homer McMahon in 1997 three 46:04 times each we showed them a surviving set of briefing boards that the CIA had 46:11 turned over to the national archives in 1993 now this set of briefing boards consisted of four panels that were not 46:18 joined by any hinge four separate panels first we asked them did you make the briefing boards and they both said no we 46:25 made the prints they made the print for their briefing board they described their event as uh consisting of Homer 46:32 McMahon Ben Hunter Pier sanss who called them in and met them at the building and 46:38 brought the customer in and the customer for them was one secret service agent named Bill Smith but it was only one 46:45 agent uh now uh Homer McMahon uh told me twice in 46:52 the interview that we tape recorded that he didn't make the briefing boards that were made 46:57 from his event he made the Prints but he knew that the briefing boards were made upstairs at inpic he told me that twice 47:04 so what we have here what I'm going to show you are uh photographs that Peter 47:10 Janney took at the national archives in the year 2009 of these four surviving 47:16 briefing board panels I'd like you to take your time and look at 47:22 them and after you examine them I'd like you to tell tell me if you think that these 47:28 briefing boards in the National Archives are the ones that you made they are not the ones that I 47:35 made and I can tell that because at no time that I put frames 47:41 missing this board says six frames missing two three frames missing four frames missing I didn't do 47:49 that and then these uh start that's not my work okay do those briefing boards in 47:57 the archives they want you're looking at the images do they list frame numbers anywhere for each print no they don't no 48:04 but uh is it fair to say that you're absolutely certain that on your briefing boards you listed the frame number of 48:09 each Ralph Ralph Pur ConEd M and you remember seeing that text on 48:15 the briefing board before you gave it to Mr londel and I didn't have uh panels 48:21 numbers I didn't have that on there and the other thing is there's a lot more prints here than than I made uh do know 48:27 associated with those four briefing board panels in the archives are a set of working notes I never did see these 48:34 These are computations that that I've never seen we didn't have time to do all this that's another thing under normal 48:41 circumstances Dino since you were the duty officer the weekend after President 48:47 Kennedy was assassinated on Friday you were the duty officer Saturday and Sunday should you have been notified if 48:52 there was briefing board activity at inpic that weekend no I thought about about that 48:57 because I I told lall I was going home to sleep so lall didn't call me that day at 49:04 all on Sunday on Sunday okay I told him he said you've done a good job he 49:09 complimented me and he said what are you going to do and I said I'm going to get some breakfast and then I'm going to go home and 49:15 sleep and he he said okay so 49:20 uh so I hadn't uh if they appeared on Sunday night I didn't know anything 49:25 about it were Pierre sanss Homer McMahon or Ben Hunter at the event at which over 49:30 which you presided no okay no just Ralph Paris Bill Banfield and then uh I think 49:38 it was about three in the lab and three in the uh pasting the thing together and Homer McMahon wrote these 49:44 notes uh he and Ben Hunter wrote wrote this one page the front and the back of this one page it says shoot in negative 49:51 1 and 1/2 hours process and dry 2 hours print test 1 hour make three prints each 49:58 1 hour process and dry prints 1 and a half hours the total time for this job 50:04 is 7 hours so Mr McMahon explained to me in 1997 that uh this refers to making of 50:13 the making of prints enlargements very similar to what you did he made three prints of each each 50:20 one yes so what that implies what that has always implied to me and I'd like to get your opinion on this is that the 50:27 Homer McMahon briefing board event that they probably made three sets of briefing boards otherwise why would they 50:33 make three prints from each inter negative that's right that's right it was so he said it was so sensitive that 50:39 the secret service agent named Bill Smith took all the scraps with him all the scraps left over test print uh all 50:47 the scraps from the making of and leftovers from the making of their enlargements with him when he left 50:54 inpic uh the next morning and and uh and 50:59 and therefore if if Mr Bill Smith was that concerned with scraps they would 51:05 not have in my view they would not have made three prints each unless unless they wanted three sets of briefing boards no I made sure that every print 51:12 was was accounted for if not if it destroyed then I destroyed it understand 51:18 when Janie first showed me uh you know that there were other people involved I 51:23 said boy that's strange that's that was news to me when he when he told me that two years ago in 51:29 2009 because at no time did lundal ever tell me about it every morning we had 51:36 briefings and uh I I attended every one of those meetings every one of those briefings so would you describe you 51:41 would describe that as unusual to say the least oh yeah that he didn't tell now this this event Sunday 51:48 night where the prints were made by Homer McMahon and Ben Hunter they were 51:53 called in by they were met at the facility apparently called in by Pier Sans who you've described as the deputy 52:00 director for inpic uh now the only thing I can put I've thought a lot about 52:06 this is that londal call Pierre and say well Dino is tired and we got to can you spare him or 52:13 but he didn't tell me that that's that was going to be my next question if it had been a routine Evolution and there 52:19 was nothing unusual about it wouldn't he have told you about it yeah so the fact that he didn't tell you about it uh uh 52:27 does it does it mean to you that lundle didn't know what Pier SS was doing or is it more likely that he did know and that 52:33 lundle is the man that told him to go in and do it lall probably told him to go 52:40 in and uh and and the thing about it is though I don't I don't see where is the 52:47 uh where are the the labs certainly this was sensitive what what about Bill Banfield and well Bill 52:54 bfield okay I'm glad you where where's the other people that that 52:59 I'm glad you brought that up Dino Homer 53:04 McMahon and Ben Hunter were told by the secret service agent Bill Smith on Sunday night November 24th you may not 53:12 discuss this activity with anyone not even with your own boss and if anybody asks what the overtime is about on your 53:19 time card you're to go to Captain Sans about it so my question for you is was Bill 53:27 Banfield Homer McMahon's boss if Homer McMahon was in charge of the Color Lab would Bill Banfield have been his boss 53:34 probably well certainly he would have had to call Bill Banfield to get the lab people in or have because uh you know 53:43 Homer McMahon told us that he probably did all that himself 53:49 that night opened up the lab and unlocked all the different doors and and turned on the power he probably did all 53:55 that himself he also told us that's rare he also told us that he 54:02 was not contacted and by that he meant the context of the conversation was he he 54:09 was not contacted by the duty officer is what he meant so would you say that's a fair statement that he was not contacted 54:14 by the duty officer that weekend I know cuz CU I would I would I would have known so who is the duty officer that we 54:20 yeah that's it it was you right yeah after mcone left the CIA The 54:28 Briefing board comes back they cleared out his desk and sent it back and I have 54:35 a special map cabinet only me and lall has a combination of it the board comes 54:42 back without the notes lall gave it to me said put it away only you and I are 54:48 are can see it so I put it in the uh in the map cabinet put the lock on it and let laid 54:57 there then when the investigation of uh the Rockefeller commission the 55:03 investigation of CIA and domestic activities came up we were called in and said now make a list of every contact 55:09 that you've had with people involved in domestic activities during that discussion uh uh 55:17 I told Mr Hicks I said I've got the zap Ruder film thing and he blew up God damn it 55:26 what the what the hell are you doing with that and that's the language he used that's the language he used and then he said get the goddamn thing out 55:33 of here is that a that sounds like a Verbatim quote that's a Verbatim quote boy he he really was mad he was mad in 55:40 hell so I took the thing I took the uh I took the uh board downstairs to The 55:47 Courier shop and I said wrap it and send it to the 55:52 director's office and I never heard anything about it again lall left in 55:58 1972 so it was after lall left you returned it to the director of the CIA director of CIA at his insistence and 56:06 who and who was Mr Hicks was he what was his job he was the director he was the director of npic was he the person who 56:12 relieved Mr lundle when he retired okay so he was the new director after Mr lundle I took it as kind of a a blow to 56:19 me because I was doing what what I was told to do not only that I had I had worked on the thing and I was 56:26 knowledgeable and I was good enough to to tell him I had it uh if I if I hadn't told him it would 56:32 still be in the cabinet did you ever discuss with Mr lundle the event that 56:38 you supervised on Saturday night after it happened did you ever talk to him about it yeah I told him about I told 56:44 him about uh you know Hicks being mad at me when I when he found it oh so after 56:49 Mr lundle had retired oh yeah oh yeah we we used to get together about once a month what was his reaction to that 56:57 and I I told him I said you know I got chewed out and he said 'oh I'm sorry he said you know he didn't mean to put me 57:03 in that position but that this stuff was tight 57:08 was tight and I uh I I was leery let me 57:14 put it this way whenever you handle something like that you're leery of leak and that's what one reason why I had 57:19 gotten the names of everybody so that if something leaked somebody talked out of turn uh we would know 57:27 who it was and as far as as far as Bill and and and 57:32 uh and and the others you know there was no no talking there they we we made it very clear to the lab and and to the 57:39 others that they were not to speak to anybody about it because once I once I saw that once I 57:46 saw that head part of the head go into the air I I knew this was sensitive 57:51 material I showed Hicks the boards before I sent them away you did show Mr Hicks The Briefing board yes I did 57:58 that's important I I wasn't clear on that yes I did before I took him downstairs I showed him that what I 58:05 had and I said I'm sending him to the director's office okay 58:12 so he saw he saw what I had so we have a in my view we have a conundrum here yeah 58:18 Mr Hicks knew that your briefing board was two panels joined with a hinge because you showed it to him yeah I 58:23 showed it to him he knows about a four panel Chanel set because he's written about it and forwarded the notes about 58:30 its creation to uh ddsn so my question for you is this did Mr Hicks ever share 58:38 with you Dino the fact that one set of four briefing board panels was found at 58:43 inpic no okay how does that make you feel today well it bothers me that I can't 58:51 imagine lundal sending people in and not telling me 58:58 because I was so close to lall you were would it be fair to describe you as his right-hand man oh 59:04 yeah oh yeah even more than the deputy director perhaps right oh yeah oh yeah because you prepared is it not you 59:11 prepared briefing boards for presidents yeah not only that but uh I 59:16 I I I would I would whatever I made I would make sure that lall saw 59:22 it now the next document number five will be of great interest to 59:29 you I think document number five is a handwritten memo written by 59:36 noi and he says I called Bob Olen that's Rockefeller Commission on May 13th to 59:42 tell him no understandable textual material concerning the zuder film had gone from CIA to the Secret Service I 59:50 arranged for Olsen to meet with uh director Hicks at npic on 5:14 for an 59:58 oral briefing on the subject have you ever seen this memo before no okay and 1:00:04 I'm surprised I I wasn't called in that's my question sir is did you ever attend a briefing in 1:00:11 which Mr Hicks brief Mr Olsen no about the zuder film how does that make you feel 1:00:19 today well he might have he I guess he was so ticked off with me 1:00:27 is it is it possible 1:00:32 that that you knew something that Mr Hicks didn't want Mr Olsen to know so he 1:00:37 didn't call you to the meeting for that reason now you would think you know for 1:00:43 an oral briefing on the subject that hicks Hicks didn't didn't 1:00:49 know the background you know I told him you know I I told him what had happened I said uh I had I had 1:00:56 worked on these I made these and then lall told me to when one of them came back 1:01:02 the prob let me uh mention something here Hicks thought a lot of me and Hicks 1:01:09 put me on a lot of very touchy projects and he always had a lot of praise for me 1:01:15 he would send nice little memos to me whenever I did something good so I I was 1:01:21 on but that one time that bothered him really he was mad 1:01:27 in hell I I just don't understand though lall not telling me what was going on because lundal 1:01:35 would always tell me what what the score was so that and I Lund would always tell me you know uh 1:01:42 if you see something where I can get burned or anything like that you make damn sure come up come up here and see 1:01:47 me and and the same thing with Hicks mhm but I don't know I don't know what uh 1:01:54 okay I have a I have a question for you this is the big this is The $64,000 Question I'm dating myself 1:02:01 right we have a situation where Mr Hicks is not telling you that 1:02:07 he's found a four panel briefing board and a bunch of notes no he's not telling you 1:02:13 that and he's not telling Mr Olen or the Rockefeller 1:02:21 commission or noi that you made a different briefing 1:02:27 board and had a different Evolution he's not telling them something and he's not 1:02:32 telling you something uh on top of that we have Mr lundle not telling you about the second 1:02:39 event Sunday night with Homer McMahon and Ben Hunter do you think that all of this 1:02:46 withholding May indicate that there is a compartmentalized operation going on at 1:02:51 inpic intentionally that that the two groups were were kept apart on purpose 1:02:57 that they were not supposed to know what the other group was doing I don't know I don't know that's not that wasn't like 1:03:03 imp pick I'll tell you that way not normally huh oh no and yet it did happen that way we we know now that that Mr 1:03:11 Hicks didn't tell you about the four briefing board panels or the notes and we know that Mr Hicks knew about your 1:03:18 two panel briefing board and he didn't tell noi or the Rockefeller commission 1:03:24 about that it's a mystery isn't it and I'm surprised that I wasn't called 1:03:30 in uh you know uh Sunday night no not only Sunday night but when 1:03:37 when Olen for the briefing to to be called up before the committee yeah yeah somehow 1:03:44 somehow I got the impression I was supposed to be left out of this did you get that impression then or 1:03:50 or subsequently no I'm I'm getting it now that I you know I'm getting the 1:03:56 impression that what I did was was uh some you know push push it aside or 1:04:02 something I can't understand why it does appear to me I would have to concur it does appear to me as a uh as a former 1:04:10 government analyst on the review board staff and as a historian that that you were kept out of the loop in 1:04:16 1975 because I'll tell you one thing I was very honest with everything that I did and and uh if somebody was saying 1:04:25 well we're going to subterfuge in that but you won't don't count me in on this and uh and 1:04:34 uh I just can't understand though the only thing I can think of is that lall 1:04:39 said oh because I had worked all through the night and he had seen the work that I did you know and he was pleased with 1:04:46 what I did for him and he was taking it over to Mone and I told he said what are you going to do be doing I said I'm 1:04:52 going to go home I'm tired I'm going to go to sleep and the only thing I can think of is he he calls Sans but why and 1:04:58 yet why didn't he tell you why didn't he why didn't he tell me right if it was routine operation with nothing sensitive 1:05:04 why didn't he tell you about it there's only one more document to talk about it's dated May 27th 1:05:11 presumably 1975 it was with these other documents that the agency sent me so I think it's the same year and it's a note 1:05:18 written by an unknown person who refers to the npic analysis of the zuder film 1:05:24 done by Captain Pierre Sam as part of a briefing prepared for John 1:05:30 mcon now we know that Dino we know that Pierre Sans was involved if not the organizer 1:05:38 of the second inpi briefing board event on Sunday November 24th starting that 1:05:43 evening and going into Monday morning uh so this sentence once again I 1:05:49 have a document that appears to conflate two different events yeah it talks about 1:05:55 uh zilm analysis done by pieter Sans and then it says as part of a briefing 1:06:01 prepared for mcon but that's what you did I don't know whether this was an intent this was an intent by someone to 1:06:07 conflate two issues to confuse history and to hide something or whether it was a poorly written document by someone who 1:06:13 wasn't there and didn't know what they were talking about that's that's what it sound I just don't know that's what it sound like to me do you have any final 1:06:19 thoughts about that confusing time that you'd like to elaborate I just 1:06:27 uh I I I took part in it and uh I did the boards that I told 1:06:34 you about and uh the fact that uh we had to go and get a uh a uh we were using uh 1:06:42 8 mm film when I was when I was in there the fact that uh there were two men 1:06:48 there at the time the fact that I gave them notes the fact that I gave them a list of people that were there uh and then 1:06:56 that the board came back and that lundal knew about it and and and Hicks knew about 1:07:03 it I'll end with one final question now that we've looked at these seven 1:07:09 documents it's it appears to me that hicks had the big picture and 1:07:15 you didn't and he kept you in the dark about the second event he didn't tell you they found four briefing board 1:07:21 panels or notes I've been out of the either purposefully kept out of the 1:07:28 loop for and I can't figure out why because my relationship with lall was 1:07:34 just Top Flight if he did keep you out of the let's just one me out of the loop it 1:07:40 would be because he knew I was I was too honest to to be a part of any scheme because he and I were were close 1:07:48 in other words if he kept you out of the loop it would have been because he knew you were too honest and because he might have been ordered to would that be 1:07:55 possible possibility that could be a possibility but uh I don't know do you think it's possible that Pier Sans would 1:08:01 have done all this activity Sunday night going out of his way probably to 1:08:06 pick different people that were not involved the night before without without receiving orders from londel 1:08:12 what's the possibility that Pier sanss was freewheeling and doing this for someone else now the people that you're talking about they're not photo 1:08:18 interpreters the two people that were down there not photo interpr and they only made the prince but they they they made that clear they didn't claim to be 1:08:24 they only made the prince yeah but the analysis uh we had I was a photo 1:08:30 interpreter I I could look at the imagery and Ralph Pur could look at the imagery for anything in other words we 1:08:37 were looking at the imagery uh from a uh photo interpretation uh point of view what 1:08:42 what we were seeing I can't imagine though that you go you go in and do the 1:08:49 work and you don't you're not with sanss and and you're not keeping lall posted 1:08:57 this this is sensitive stuff but I can't understand why Banfield wasn't there you know lab you you think you something 1:09:04 this sensitive you'd have a lab Chief in there Eastman Kodak had a camera called a 1:09:10 Hawkeye and then that building Hawkeye when they finished producing the cameras they 1:09:16 changed it into a photo lab and they experiment with all thing and we were had close relationship with 1:09:23 them if you wanted anything done with photography go to take it contact Ed 1:09:28 green and at Hawkeye and he he would do it for you and then they had three of the most brilliant uh photo men I think 1:09:36 I've ever met and uh and one was Ed one was Ed green 1:09:43 Hawkeye has got the best lab for anything that's where they developed the 1:09:49 U2 film the uh satellite films and everything else if it was something special 1:09:55 if it was high priority of national interest then it would uh the You2 would fly the mission and the film would be 1:10:02 brought back right to uh Eastman or to the Navy Navy processing plant at at 1:10:10 suland for example the the flights over Cuba fighting the missile that was 1:10:16 processed by the Navy is it fair to say that the uh that the CIA had a contractual formal 1:10:24 relationship with with Kodak and the Hawkeye plant to do certain tasks on demand oh yeah sure okay see the plant 1:10:31 was divided and it just so happened that all the CI material was in a classified 1:10:37 area and so I only visited the classified area I didn't go into the UN I was 1:10:42 never I never did roam the unclassified area that they were working with when I tell you that secret service agent Bill 1:10:49 Smith informed Homer McMahon at inpic on Sunday night November 24th when I tell 1:10:54 you that Bill Smith told him that this Motion Picture film of the assassination this a prer 1:11:01 film was processed at hawy he used the word Hawkeye Works uh does that sound 1:11:08 feasible to you that that a home movie would be processed there yes you want the finest work that you can get 1:11:14 sure you know that if it went there you were going to get a first class uh first 1:11:20 class print job do know during your interviews uh 1:11:25 with Peter Janney in the year 2009 many interviews you told Peter repeatedly 1:11:32 that quote unquote at Hawkeye Works they could do anything quote unquote they could do 1:11:38 anything would you still