China’s Whole-of-Society Espionage Playbook: Nicholas Eftimiades

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This is the 30 minute TV version of Jan Jekielek’s interview with Nicholas Eftimiades. The longer-form version was released on Epoch TV on March 17, 2025.

🔴 Watch the extended version of this episode: https://ept.ms/Y0517NicholasEftimiades

There are few people who understand the workings of Chinese espionage as well as Nicholas Eftimiades.

After a 34-year government career—including time at the CIA, Department of State, and Defense Intelligence Agency—he’s now a professor at Penn State University’s Homeland Security Program and a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

“China uses what we call a whole-of-society approach to conducting espionage. … We’re not talking about thousands [of people]. We’re talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people engaged globally in carrying out the CCP’s will,” Eftimiades says.

CHAPTER TITLES
0:00:01 - Introduction to China's Espionage Approach
0:01:04 - Scale and Strategic Threat of Chinese Espionage
0:02:33 - Incentive Structures and Whole-of-Society Approach
0:04:58 - Case Study: Professor Charles Lieber and Technology Theft
0:07:07 - Legal Implications and Punishment of Academic Espionage
0:09:36 - Technology Leakage and National Security Concerns
0:12:00 - Understanding Counterintelligence
0:14:16 - Transnational Repression and Global Influence Operations
0:16:33 - Case Study: Fang Fang and Long-Term Asset Development
0:17:52 - Strategic Responses and Allied Cooperation
0:20:37 - The CCP's Obsession with Falun Gong
0:22:12 - Challenges in Countering Chinese Espionage and Call to Action