Episode 3306: The Flight From Rome: Why Some Leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy

November 26, 2025

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Book Recommendation of the Day
The Imitation of Christ
By Thomas à Kempis (honored as a saint in many traditions)
This masterpiece addresses the interior collapse that happens when the Faith is sentimentalized, watered-down, or distorted.
Key themes:
• fleeing the world
• loving truth
• rejecting novelty
• submission to spiritual authority
• finding Christ in suffering and fidelity
Many who flee the Church do so because they never developed the deep interior life this book teaches.

“The Flight From Rome: Why Some Leave Catholicism and Why the Answer Is a Return to Tradition”
A Question Echoing Across the World
Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode rooted in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the perennial Magisterium of the Church. Today’s topic is one that many clergy avoid because it forces us to look directly at the deepest wound in the Church:
Why are so many Catholics leaving? And why are a growing number converting to Eastern Orthodoxy?
This question has exploded across Catholic media YouTube interviews, podcasts, and conversations in the pews. The image you provided Father Charles Murr speaking under the title “Why People Leave Catholicism” is not just a thumbnail. It represents a cry heard from Catholics worldwide:
• “Why does my parish feel empty?”
• “Why does the Mass feel stripped of reverence?”
• “Why is doctrine unclear?”
• “Why do the Orthodox seem more traditional than we are?”
And perhaps the most painful:
“Did something go wrong after Vatican II?”
Today, we answer these questions head-on.
SECTION I — The Deep Roots of the Crisis: A Church That Lost Its Nerve
To understand why people leave, we must first understand what they are leaving behind.
People are not leaving Catholicism.
They are leaving a distorted, watered-down presentation of Catholicism that took over many parishes after the 1960s.
1. The Church Stopped Teaching With Authority
For 19 centuries, Catholic preaching was marked by:
• clarity
• hierarchy
• moral certainty
• reverence for the sacred
After the Council, a new mentality emerged:
• “We don’t want to offend.”
• “We must dialogue.”
• “Truth is a journey.”
This ambiguity created spiritual starvation. And where Catholic truth is not preached, people wander.
2. The Liturgy Was Disfigured in Practice
Let us speak honestly and with charity.
The Novus Ordo, even when celebrated reverently, cannot escape these realities:
• its prayers are simplified and shortened
• its orientation shifts from God to the people
• its music became horizontal, emotional, sentimental
• the sanctuary became a stage
• many priests were trained to be entertainers
Meanwhile, the Orthodox liturgy remained:
• ancient
• deeply mystical
• sung rather than spoken
• full of incense, chant, and sacred imagery
People crave the sacred. And when they can’t find it in Catholic parishes, they look elsewhere.
3. Priests Were Trained to Be Social Workers, Not Fathers
Many post-Vatican II seminaries emphasized:
• psychology
• pastoral “accompaniment”
• avoiding confrontation
• horizontal community building
But Catholics need fathers, not facilitators.
When the shepherd steps back, the wolves step forward.
SECTION II: The Parish Takeover: How Leadership Collapsed
One of the most sensitive but unavoidable topics:
the feminization and lay dominance of parish life.
This is not anti-woman. The greatest saints in history include women. The Blessed Mother is Queen of Heaven.
But something must be said clearly:

When priests fail to lead, parishes become governed by whoever has the strongest personality.
Often:
• liturgy committees
• pastoral councils
• school boards
• paid administrators
• sacristy “gatekeepers”
In many parishes, these dominant figures (often older women or long-entrenched staff) hold more practical authority than the pastor.
Father Murr has spoken repeatedly about this phenomenon:
the disappearance of priestly leadership and the rise of parish matriarchies.
This creates chaos, politics, gossip, and confusion pushing many faithful Catholics away.
They do not leave Catholicism.
They leave the dysfunction.

SECTION III: Why Orthodoxy Attracts People Today
1. Because Orthodoxy Offers Stability
Amid a Catholic Church that appears divided, confused, and often contradictory, Orthodoxy feels stable.
Their liturgy has not changed.
Their vestments have not changed.
Their doctrine appears consistent.
Their priests embrace traditional roles.
People look at Orthodoxy and see what Catholicism used to embody publicly before the 1960s.
2. Because Orthodoxy Looks Like the Ancient Church
To many people who grew up in:
• carpeted sanctuaries
• folk guitars
• homilies about recycling
• communion lines like a cafeteria
Orthodox liturgy looks like a revelation.

But the tragedy is this:
Everything beautiful in Orthodoxy already exists in Traditional Catholicism.
The Latin Rite possesses unmatched depth, antiquity, and theological precision.
Orthodoxy simply preserved what Catholics abandoned.
3. Because Orthodoxy Provides Strong Masculine Leadership
In Orthodoxy, even flawed clergy act like fathers:
• bold preaching
• decisive leadership
• ascetical discipline
• clear moral expectations
• sacramental integrity
Compare that to the average Catholic homily filled with jokes and stories about Father’s dog…
People long for spiritual strength.

SECTION IV: But Orthodoxy Cannot Replace the Catholic Church
So let me first explain the difference between Orthodoxy and Traditional Catholicism for those of you that do not know. Btw this will be a pretty long episode so bear with me.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ORTHODOXY & TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM
1. What “Traditional Catholicism” Means
By Traditional Catholicism, we mean Catholics who:
• Fully accept the Pope, the Papacy, and Catholic dogma.
• Adhere to the Traditional Latin Mass or the pre-conciliar liturgical theology.
• Hold to pre-Vatican II discipline, spirituality, and doctrine.
• Believe in the timeless teachings of the Church, what St. Vincent of Lérins called “what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.”
Traditional Catholics are Roman Catholics not a separate church but are distinguished by their fidelity to the Church as it existed before the upheavals of the 1960s.
2. What Eastern Orthodoxy Is
Orthodoxy refers to the various Eastern churches (Greek, Russian, Antiochian, Serbian, etc.) that:
• Share apostolic succession and valid sacraments.
• Broke communion with Rome in 1054 and remain schismatic from the Catholic perspective.
• Reject the universal authority of the Bishop of Rome.
• Preserve the Byzantine liturgical tradition.
3. CORE DIFFERENCE #1: AUTHORITY
Catholic (Traditional):
• The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, the successor of Peter.
• He has universal jurisdiction and the final say in doctrinal disputes.
• Councils require papal confirmation.
• As Vatican I said: “Where Peter is, there is the Church.”
Orthodox:
• Reject papal supremacy.
• See the Pope as “first among equals,” not a supreme authority.
• Believe the Church is governed by the synodality of bishops, not a single head.
• This is the central theological divide.
Traditional Catholics believe Orthodoxy is “95% Catholic” but missing the cornerstone: Peter.
4. CORE DIFFERENCE #2: DOCTRINE
Orthodoxy rejects or disputes several Catholic dogmas:
• The Papacy
As explained above, Orthodox deny papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction.
B. The Filioque (Creed)
• Catholics profess the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
• Orthodoxy rejects “and the Son” and believes the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.

C. The Immaculate Conception
• Catholics: Mary was conceived without original sin.
• Orthodoxy: Most Orthodox reject this dogma.
D. Purgatory
• Catholics: Purgatory is a defined doctrine.
• Orthodoxy: Many accept purification after death, but reject the Catholic definition and especially its juridical imagery.
E. Original Sin
• Catholics follow St. Augustine’s doctrine of original sin.
• The Orthodox understanding is less juridical and differs in key ways.
F. Contraception
• Traditional Catholics: ALWAYS gravely sinful, no exceptions.
• Orthodoxy: Most jurisdictions allow contraception under certain conditions.

G. Divorce & Remarriage
• Traditional Catholics: Absolutely forbidden (Christ Himself forbids it).
• Orthodoxy: Allows divorce and remarriage up to three times under the “oikonomia” principle.
5. CORE DIFFERENCE #3: LITURGICAL THEOLOGY
Traditional Catholics:
• The Mass is a propitiatory Sacrifice.
• The priest faces God (ad orientem).
• Latin is sacred, universal, unchanging.
• Rubrics, vestments, chant, and strict ritual embody continuity.
Orthodoxy:
• The Divine Liturgy is also sacrificial, but emphasizes mystery and deification more than juridical atonement.
• Worship is in the vernacular or ancient liturgical languages (Greek, Church Slavonic).
• Theology of icons and mysticism is highly developed.
• They see liturgical development as organic but reject post-Schism Catholic additions.
Orthodox liturgy is beautiful and ancient, but not governed by the Roman Magisterium.
6. SACRAMENTS
Catholicism:
• All seven sacraments are valid, and Rome is the guardian of sacramental discipline.
Orthodoxy:
• All seven sacraments are valid, but the Orthodox churches do not recognize Catholic sacraments as equal unless union is restored.
Catholics, however, recognize Orthodox sacraments as valid but illicit because of schism.

7. VIEW OF THE CHURCH
Traditional Catholics:
• Believe the Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Christ.
• Eastern Orthodoxy is in schism due to rejecting papal authority.
• Unity with Peter is essential.
Orthodoxy:
• Believe they are the original Church and that Rome fell into error by developing the papacy and Western doctrines.
• See the Catholic Church as having theological innovations.
8. VIEW OF TRADITION
Traditional Catholics:
• Tradition is safeguarded and interpreted by the Magisterium, specifically under Peter’s office.
Orthodoxy:
• Tradition is safeguarded by bishops in council, not by one bishop over all.
9. PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES FELT IN PARISH LIFE
Traditional Catholicism:
• Clear moral teaching.
• Strong ascetic practices.
• Sacramental discipline.
• Clear lines of authority.
• Uniform universal rituals (the Roman Rite).
Orthodoxy:
• Highly mystical.
• Fasting is strict (stricter than Catholic).
• Confession and spiritual fatherhood are central.
• Liturgy is longer and entirely sung.
• Local variations are common depending on jurisdiction.
10. SUMMARY IN ONE SENTENCE
Orthodoxy is the ancient Christian tradition that broke from Rome in 1054 and refuses papal authority; Traditional Catholicism is the ancient Christian tradition that remains in communion with Rome, preserving historic doctrine, discipline, and liturgy while fully accepting the Pope.
It is essential to speak the truth with charity:
1. Orthodoxy Lacks the Fullness of Doctrine
Orthodox jurisdictions disagree about:
• divorce
• contraception
• original sin
• papal authority
• the Immaculate Conception
• purgatory
• universal jurisdiction
Where Orthodoxy offers beauty
Catholicism offers both beauty and truth.
2. Orthodoxy Lacks Universal Authority
Christ gave Peter the keys:
“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.”
Without a universal shepherd, Orthodoxy remains a collection of national churches, periodically in schism with one another.
3. Orthodoxy Preserves Tradition Liturgically but Has Not Defined Doctrine for 1,000 Years
The Orthodox liturgy is beautiful.
But doctrinal development effectively froze after 1054.
Meanwhile, the Catholic Church:
• defined Christology at Trent
• clarified grace and justification
• articulated Mariology
• defined papal infallibility
• condemned modern errors
The fullness of truth resides only in the Catholic Church.
SECTION V: The Real Reason People Leave: They Have Never Seen the Catholic Church in Her Full Glory
Imagine this:
A Catholic grows up seeing:
• banal liturgy
• confused teaching
• priests who will not preach truth
• parish politics
• ugly architecture
• sentimental music
• no sense of reverence
• no spiritual discipline
And then they visit:
• a Byzantine Divine Liturgy
• a Traditional Latin Mass
• an Eastern Catholic parish
• or even a Protestant service with confident preaching
What conclusion do they draw?
“My parish wasn’t Catholic enough.”
And they are right.
Most Catholics today have never once experienced:
• Gregorian chant
• ad orientem worship
• incense used correctly
• patristic preaching
• the Roman Canon
• vestments of beauty
• silence
• true reverence
• clearly taught doctrine
• a priest acting as a father
When people finally encounter real tradition whether in Orthodoxy or in a TLM they realize:
“This is what my soul was starving for.”
SECTION VI: The Solution: Restore Catholic Tradition
1. Restore the Liturgy
The liturgy forms the soul.
• beauty teaches truth
• reverence produces humility
• silence teaches the fear of God
• chant elevates the heart
• tradition anchors identity
Where the liturgy is strong, faith is strong.
2. Restore the Priesthood
Priests must reclaim:
• fatherhood
• authority
• discipline
• ascetical life
• doctrinal clarity
When priests lead as fathers, the flock thrives.
3. Restore the Catechism
The Church must return to teaching:
• sin
• judgment
• heaven and hell
• the sacraments
• holiness
• devotions
• fasting
• Marian consecration
This is the Catholic Faith unchanging and eternal.
4. Restore Catholic Culture
Families must rediscover:
• the Rosary
• Ember days
• meatless Fridays
• holy hours
• catechism
• feast days
• sacramentals
• liturgical living
A Catholic home must look and feel Catholic.
5. Strengthen Traditional Parishes
Around the world, TLM parishes are:
• packed with young families
• filled with vocations
• reverent
• devout
• joyful
• thriving
This is the future of the Church.
SECTION VII : A Final Warning and Hope
The Warning
The devil does not fear a Church that blends into the world.
He fears a Church that:
• preaches truth
• prays with reverence
• practices discipline
• protects her sacraments
• upholds her traditions
Modernism emptied the pews.
Tradition will fill them again.
The Hope
The renewal has already begun.
• Seminaries are rediscovering Latin.
• Bishops are quietly learning the TLM.
• Young Catholics are rejecting modernism.
• Families are embracing tradition.
• Vocations are rising in traditional orders.
This is not nostalgia.
This is the inevitable resurgence of truth.
CONCLUSION
People are not leaving the Catholic Church.
They are leaving a shadow, a distortion, a modernist experiment that hollowed out parishes and weakened faith.
The solution is not to flee to Orthodoxy.
The solution is to restore Catholic tradition.
When the Church reclaims:
• her ancient liturgy
• her strong doctrine
• her spiritual discipline
• her masculine leadership
• her Marian devotion
she will once again become the lighthouse that saves souls.
The crisis will end.
The exodus will stop.
The renewal will flourish.
Because the Faith of our fathers is alive and God is raising up a remnant to restore the Church.
Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 45:1–6
“He was beloved of God and men: whose memory is in benediction.
He was made like to the saints; and was glorified in the sight of God.
He was magnified for the fear of the Lord, and he made him like to the holy ones.
He strengthened him with the blessings of all men: and confirmed his covenant in his hands.”
These words originally refer to Moses, the great liberator and lawgiver.
But the Church places this reading before us today for a reason: Moses is a type of Christ, and a type of the saintly leaders God raises up in every age men chosen, purified, and set apart for sacred mission.
A. Moses: Chosen and Consecrated
Moses was:
• Beloved of God
• Beloved of men
• Remembered in benediction
• Strengthened by grace
• Consecrated for leadership
God chooses His instruments not because they are the wisest, or the strongest, or the most talented but because they fear Him, love Him, and are willing to obey.
B. A Mirror for the Faithful Remnant Today
In our time, the Church is undergoing profound turmoil.
Confusion, doctrinal ambiguity, and moral compromise have penetrated deeply into ecclesial structures. Many Catholics feel abandoned by shepherds who should lead them.
Yet the reading reminds us:
God always preserves a faithful remnant.
He always raises up new "Moses figures": priests, bishops, lay leaders, and simple faithful who cling to Tradition unchanged.
As St. Paul says, “God is not mocked.”
He will not abandon His people.
C. Chosen for Fidelity in Times of Crisis
Just as Moses stood against Pharaoh,
and St. Athanasius stood against the Arian heresy,
and St. Sylvester stood against Roman paganism…
So today, God raises up those who will stand against modernism, secularism, relativism, and the erosion of Catholic identity.
The Epistle tells us:
“His memory is in benediction.”
The world remembers the saints but God remembers the faithful.
And that is what matters.
II. Feast Day Reflection — St. Sylvester, Pope and Confessor
St. Sylvester lived during one of the most pivotal transitions in Church history.
He became pope in AD 314, just after the Edict of Milan.
A. A Time of Monumental Change
Rome was shifting from pagan persecution to Christian toleration. Yet, with acceptance came new dangers:
• Syncretism
• Doctrinal confusion
• Political influence on spiritual matters
• The temptation to compromise to maintain peace
Sylvester guided the Church through this transformation with:
• Doctrinal clarity
• Courage
• Defense of orthodoxy
He oversaw the Council of Nicaea’s aftermath, defended the divinity of Christ, and ensured that Christianity now legally recognized did not lose its spiritual identity.
B. Why St. Sylvester Matters Today
Today the Church faces new forms of paganism:
• Worship of the self
• Environmental pantheism
• Moral relativism
• Liturgical rupture
• Confusion in doctrine and morals
Yet St. Sylvester reminds us:
The Church prevails not through compromise but through clarity.
Not through cooperation with error, but by proclaiming the truth boldly.
He lived Sirach 45:
“He made him like the saints, and magnified him for the fear of God.”
True reform is always rooted in fear of the Lord not fear of public opinion.
The Gospel — Matthew 19:27–29
“Then Peter answering, said to Him: Behold, we have left all things, and have followed Thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you… every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters… for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.”
This Gospel comes right after the story of the rich young man who walked away sad because he could not surrender his possessions.
Peter speaks for all of us who have given up much to follow Christ.
A. What We Give Up
For traditional Catholics today, sacrifice is real:
• Loss of friendships
• Strain within family
• Being mocked or misunderstood for loving the Latin Mass
• Being labeled “rigid” or “backward”
• Driving long distances just to attend reverent liturgy
• Losing parish home when diocesan restrictions hit
• Facing pressure to compromise for acceptance
Like Peter, we cry out:
“Lord, we have left all things… what then shall we have?”
B. Christ’s Answer
Jesus responds with divine authority:
“You shall receive a hundredfold.”
Not in earthly wealth… but in grace, peace, spiritual family, and finally eternal life.
Every sacrifice made for Christ
every inconvenience, every loss, every humiliation,
every act of fidelity amid confusion is written in His Heart.
C. The Cross Before the Crown
Traditional Catholics today often feel like exiles in their own Church. But this Gospel is a reminder: God sees everything.
Those who persevere will inherit:
• A hundredfold in spiritual fruits
• And life everlasting
Faithfulness will be rewarded in ways we cannot yet understand.
IV. Synthesis: Moses, Sylvester, and the Apostles
Today’s three themes unite beautifully:
1. Moses chosen, consecrated, faithful
2. St. Sylvester courageous defender in a time of upheaval
3. The Apostles rewarded for radical fidelity
In an age where many priests and bishops have drifted into ambiguity or compromise,
God calls the faithful remnant including you
to stand firm like Moses, to protect the faith like Sylvester,
and to follow Christ like the Apostles, no matter the cost.
Conclusion
As we prepare to enter Advent, the season of longing and expectation, the Church reminds us:
• God chooses leaders in every age.
• Fidelity always bears fruit.
• Sacrifice for Christ is never forgotten.
• The faithful remnant will receive eternal life.
Let us hold fast to the traditions handed down,
defend the Faith with courage, and trust that Christ will reward every sacrifice made for His sake.
Closing Prayer
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
O God, who raised up Your servant St. Sylvester
to guide Your Church in a time of turmoil,
grant us the same unwavering courage and fidelity
to uphold the truth in our own age of confusion.
Strengthen us, like Moses,
to fear You above all earthly powers.
Grant us the fortitude of the Apostles
who left all things to follow Your Son.
May we persevere in the Holy Catholic Faith,
cling to the traditions handed down from our fathers,
and never abandon the narrow path that leads to life everlasting.
Give us the grace to endure every trial for Your sake,
that we may receive the hundredfold reward You promise
and enter into the joy of eternal life.
We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.